Ooooops!!!.

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Bluesbro'
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Ooooops!!!.

Post by Bluesbro' »

Hope this doesn't get out of hand. :shock:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34907983
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Re: Ooooops!!!.

Post by Locky_McLockface »

I find this a very concerning development.

Reading the article, it appears that Russia have repeatedly failed to respect Turkish sovereignty (one can only assume the unidentified Mig-29 to be Russian, or Russian-sponsored).

Can Flight24, or someone like that, track the movements of the downed Russian fighter to confirm that it did cross into Turkish airpsace? It needs someone independent to give evidence that it did or didn't, because Russia will not accept any evidence that we provide, or the US, etc. Likewise, I doubt we'd accept any evidence that Russia or Syria were to offer. How about the Swiss?
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Re: Ooooops!!!.

Post by Locky_McLockface »

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Re: Ooooops!!!.

Post by Weybridge »

The thing is, the whole southern Turkish border is murky at best. Ask the Syrians, the Turkmen or Iraqi Kurds where it is and you'll get three different answers.
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Chiswick Blue
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Re: Ooooops!!!.

Post by Chiswick Blue »

This is EXACTLY what the Russians want.
How many times have they infringed our airspace and our planes have been dispatched to warn them off?
Apparently they may have a submarine hidden in our waters also.

As much as Turkey have disturbing connections to ISIS the Russians are a warmongering nation that cant be trusted.
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Re: Ooooops!!!.

Post by Locky_McLockface »

Chiswick Blue wrote:This is EXACTLY what the Russians want.
How many times have they infringed our airspace and our planes have been dispatched to warn them off?
Apparently they may have a submarine hidden in our waters also.

As much as Turkey have disturbing connections to ISIS the Russians are a warmongering nation that cant be trusted.
Not to disagree with your final sentence, but AIUI, we have been scrambling our jets approx 1+ times per month to intercept Russian aircraft, but they haven't actually strayed into UK sovereign airspace. They've been very careful not to - they're like the playground WUM, just prodding and probing, seeing if they can get you to snap, and then it won't be their fault if you do something stupid.

Anyway, the Turks have released some tracking data which shows the flightpath of the jet over (what they claim is) Turkish airspace. If you take the borders as agreed, it's showing the Russian jet over Turkey for a distance of just a few kilometres, on one occasion. Say 10km, at say 1000km/h, that's an encroachment lasting about 30-40 seconds. That's very quick for the Turks to send 10 warning messages before shooting.
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Re: Ooooops!!!.

Post by Portchester PFC »

It was only a matter of time, Turkish data shows the jet in their airspace, as said above the time it was there seems impossible to have sent the number of warnings stated. Unless it was doing what they do off the uk and come close to our airspace and the Turks were warning them prior to the encroachment and as soon as it did enter shot it down.

Be interesting to see how this developers indeed. Any response from Russia will surely result in Turkey invoking NATO members into a response.
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Re: Ooooops!!!.

Post by Jack_Tinn »

the_lock_man wrote:I find this a very concerning development.

Can Flight24, or someone like that, track the movements of the downed Russian fighter to confirm that it did cross into Turkish airpsace? It needs someone independent to give evidence that it did or didn't, because Russia will not accept any evidence that we provide, or the US, etc. Likewise, I doubt we'd accept any evidence that Russia or Syria were to offer. How about the Swiss?
Unfortunately not because the MiG won't have been transponding its location / height etc.
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Re: Ooooops!!!.

Post by Locky_McLockface »

Portchester PFC wrote:It was only a matter of time, Turkish data shows the jet in their airspace, as said above the time it was there seems impossible to have sent the number of warnings stated. Unless it was doing what they do off the uk and come close to our airspace and the Turks were warning them prior to the encroachment and as soon as it did enter shot it down.

Be interesting to see how this developers indeed. Any response from Russia will surely result in Turkey invoking NATO members into a response.
One of the tweets shown on the Beeb's live update feed is from a former Foreign Office official who is basically saying Vlad won't do Jack Schitt. THe actual quote is
Fears about confronting Russia have always been overblown.
But as you say, if Russia does retaliate, then Turkey will indeed run squinnying to NATO (what's the point of membership if they don't). If the bloke above is wrong, the world could be a dodgy place for a while.
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Re: Ooooops!!!.

Post by Lost in Transportation »

the_lock_man wrote:
Portchester PFC wrote:It was only a matter of time, Turkish data shows the jet in their airspace, as said above the time it was there seems impossible to have sent the number of warnings stated. Unless it was doing what they do off the uk and come close to our airspace and the Turks were warning them prior to the encroachment and as soon as it did enter shot it down.

Be interesting to see how this developers indeed. Any response from Russia will surely result in Turkey invoking NATO members into a response.
One of the tweets shown on the Beeb's live update feed is from a former Foreign Office official who is basically saying Vlad won't do Jack Schitt. THe actual quote is
Fears about confronting Russia have always been overblown.
But as you say, if Russia does retaliate, then Turkey will indeed run squinnying to NATO (what's the point of membership if they don't). If the bloke above is wrong, the world could be a dodgy place for a while.
Vlad is talking about "stabbed in the back" but other senior people in the Kremlin are taking a calmer approach. Russian speculation about surface to air missiles being involved as well rather than air to air missiles. So confused picture.
Watching wheels spin and dust settle.
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Re: Ooooops!!!.

Post by Locky_McLockface »

Interested to know why the Russians are speculating about Surface to Air, possibly their telemetry might tell them where the missile came from. I suppose the pilots might have had some clue, and may well have reported back to base prior to ejecting. Sadly, they're not in a position to answer any more questions, or so it would appear.

Why would the Turks say it was them if it wasn't?
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Re: Ooooops!!!.

Post by uspompeyfan »

Turkey were hardly the biggest supporters against ISIS when battles were being fought just over their border and Kurds were asking for help. IIRC pictures of Turkish military just sitting and waiting while the villagers got shelled a mile or so away, despite International calls to help - Turkey did nothing.

Is Putin calling out these types of Turkish actions when he claims to be stabbed in the back? He doesn't seem to be blaming all of NATO. That would enable the 'bully' to blame the fringe player on the playground, when he got punched in the nose.
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Re: Ooooops!!!.

Post by The Cincinnati Kid »

Vlad cold war warrior Putin has been testing the boundaries of NATO air defences from Scotland to Alaska to the Baltics to Turkey and he got burned by a member with some cahunas.....something the Brits and the US should have done eons ago instead of the constant warnings and escorts. That clown is a far bigger danger to World peace than ISIS ever will be.
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Both Turkey & Russia are telling porkies

Post by Locky_McLockface »

According to this

http://www.iflscience.com/physics/physi ... downed-jet

a couple of astrophycists from Leuven University in Belgium say that both Turkey & Russia are being economical with the truth over the incident.
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