Referees

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Selsey Bill
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Referees

Post by Selsey Bill »

It appears I am beginning to get a bit of a reputation for being slightly harsh on referees. Well, the referee for last night's game was a certain Oliver Langford who is amongst our 'Select Group 2' referees. This group has been created to officiate primarily in the Championship and is made up of 18 referees of which Mr Langford is one. The last time he officiated a game at Fratton Park was back in February when he was the referee for our league game against Cambridge United. I responded to a match report thread on this very message board that included the following observations:

"The referee was yet again woeful. Cambridge were very lucky not to end up with 9 men - both elbow incidents were right in front of me and both worthy of straight reds, and his booking of Chaplin and McNulty was comical."

Spot the similarities? Only this time the opposition should have been down to eight men rather than nine.

I rest my case!
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Re: Referees

Post by This Time Next Year »

Are you suggesting he might like a job here...?

http://medias.photodeck.com/13057300-6f ... xlarge.jpg
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Re: Referees

Post by Selsey Bill »

This Time Next Year wrote:Are you suggesting he might like a job here...?

http://medias.photodeck.com/13057300-6f ... xlarge.jpg
:lol: :lol: :lol: :thumb :thumb :thumb
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Re: Referees

Post by Portchester PFC »

After watching it live through beer soaked eyes I thought there was at least two reds, Head-butt, two footed leg breaker tackle and penalty. Watching it again this morning sober'ish, it was definitely two, penalty red card would have been harsh.

If Matt is not retrospectively red carded then there is something wrong.
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Re: Referees

Post by Pompey1985 »

I've not seen it back yet but at the time it was 100%. As I remember it be waved play on while Matt was holding Hollands down and we were in the break, Doyle was getting Matt off Hollands and as didn't take kindly to it and got up and put his head in. Red Card. The only possible legitimate reason the ref can't have given it is because he was watching the play at the time rather than what was going on by now off the ball. I could be wrong though as obviously there is no replays inside Fratton
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Re: Referees

Post by pomp 'n circumstance »

Selsey Bill wrote:It appears I am beginning to get a bit of a reputation for being slightly harsh on referees. Well, the referee for last night's game was a certain Oliver Langford who is amongst our 'Select Group 2' referees. This group has been created to officiate primarily in the Championship and is made up of 18 referees of which Mr Langford is one. The last time he officiated a game at Fratton Park was back in February when he was the referee for our league game against Cambridge United. I responded to a match report thread on this very message board that included the following observations:

"The referee was yet again woeful. Cambridge were very lucky not to end up with 9 men - both elbow incidents were right in front of me and both worthy of straight reds, and his booking of Chaplin and McNulty was comical."

Spot the similarities? Only this time the opposition should have been down to eight men rather than nine.

I rest my case!
Having rested your case SB, may I put the case for the defendant Oliver Langford, who arbitrated at this somewhat feisty encounter. I feel some blame must rest with the players in this particular case and the assertion that the opposition should have been reduced to 8 men.....

Players are coached these days, not only in the art of football but also in the art of play acting which is now obligatory in either claiming fouls or getting their professional opposition sent off. Having watched what goes on off the ball this season at corners and set pieces, around 3 or 4 players from every team could be red carded. It is acceptable for a forward to 'draw the foul' in the penalty which most refs will give, it is acceptable to attract the foul in the outfield and roll around pollaxed not far from deaths' door - most refs don't give that. Every time 2 players challenge for the ball in the air, one of them usually managed an elbow or an arm in the face. Patently off side players, gaze at officials mouthing 'no way' or laughing and shaking the finger in mock reply. These days, referees tend to let the play flow regardless of the number of players laying on the floor faking injury.

Turning to the game last night, sure the Plymouth scorer put his face in Doyle's face, but a head butt? Didn't look to me that there was much contact and if we have to rely on opposition players to be red carded in order to win games then that's something that needs to be addressed. And there's a far more worrying aspect that we should take on board. Our esteemed manager gets himself sent to the stand - this, perhaps the most important game of the season when he should be organising the troops and he gets dismissed....not the brightest example to set!

Oliver Langford? He was consistent in not giving very much......in line with most refs these days.
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Re: Referees

Post by Portchester PFC »

Pompey1985 wrote:I've not seen it back yet but at the time it was 100%. As I remember it be waved play on while Matt was holding Hollands down and we were in the break, Doyle was getting Matt off Hollands and as didn't take kindly to it and got up and put his head in. Red Card. The only possible legitimate reason the ref can't have given it is because he was watching the play at the time rather than what was going on by now off the ball. I could be wrong though as obviously there is no replays inside Fratton
Spot on 85, there is a very good camera angle that shows the ref was clearly looking at it when the incident took place, he briefly looked away as we played on when they were leg wrestling but looked back as Matt got back up and followed Doyle. It was not a head butt in the true sense but he definitely made contact and definitely motioned towards him to do it, it was the intent more than anything.

Was interesting listening to Linvoy after the game, he pointed out that PC and their assistant stood and shouted at each other and there was less contact than the head butt and PC and their assistant got sent off and Matt stayed on the pitch.....
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Re: Referees

Post by Locky_McLockface »

Portchester PFC wrote: Was interesting listening to Linvoy after the game, he pointed out that PC and their assistant stood and shouted at each other and there was less contact than the head butt and PC and their assistant got sent off and Matt stayed on the pitch.....
Ah, yes, Linvoy Preemus........ :roll:

My take, in all honesty, is that if Matt should have gone (and he should) then so should Doyle - he grabbed Matt's legs, and threw them aggressively backwards, which is obviously what provoked Matt's reaction. I also think the ref isn't looking directly at the headbutt, but slightly away - not by much, but it would have not been where he was focusing.

The two-footed challenge should have been a red. And for that one, I think the ref is focusing on it.

The penalty, I think it would have been harsh to send him off, there was another defender closing in from the middle.
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Re: Referees

Post by Lost in Transportation »

pomp 'n circumstance wrote:Having rested your case SB, may I put the case for the defendant Oliver Langford, who arbitrated at this somewhat feisty encounter. I feel some blame must rest with the players in this particular case and the assertion that the opposition should have been reduced to 8 men.....

Players are coached these days, not only in the art of football but also in the art of play acting which is now obligatory in either claiming fouls or getting their professional opposition sent off. Having watched what goes on off the ball this season at corners and set pieces, around 3 or 4 players from every team could be red carded. It is acceptable for a forward to 'draw the foul' in the penalty which most refs will give, it is acceptable to attract the foul in the outfield and roll around pollaxed not far from deaths' door - most refs don't give that. Every time 2 players challenge for the ball in the air, one of them usually managed an elbow or an arm in the face. Patently off side players, gaze at officials mouthing 'no way' or laughing and shaking the finger in mock reply. These days, referees tend to let the play flow regardless of the number of players laying on the floor faking injury.

Turning to the game last night, sure the Plymouth scorer put his face in Doyle's face, but a head butt? Didn't look to me that there was much contact and if we have to rely on opposition players to be red carded in order to win games then that's something that needs to be addressed. And there's a far more worrying aspect that we should take on board. Our esteemed manager gets himself sent to the stand - this, perhaps the most important game of the season when he should be organising the troops and he gets dismissed....not the brightest example to set!

Oliver Langford? He was consistent in not giving very much......in line with most refs these days.
That's not helping Oliver Langford Pomp...

There is mitigation on all three decisions:

1st Red: From the camera angles, Matt was behind Doyle in the line of sight for the referee and play had, as 85 points out, moved up the pitch. There has to be reasonable doubt that he didn't see it. Questions have to be asked of the assistant referee and the fourth official (who appeared to be on work experience from school) as to why they didn't see or help.

2nd Red: There were players both immediately behind McNulty and coming round on the angle. Given that McNulty had just reached the corner of the penalty box, I can accept the interpretation that it wasn't a clear goal scoring opportunity. But equally, I wouldn't have been surprised if it was a red card.

3rd Red: On live viewing, I thought the foul was rough. It was only with the 2nd TV replay angle that I saw it was over the top and dangerous. Everything is easier with multiple replays from different positions. So again positioning and interpretation plays its part. A slightly different position and the lad gets sent off. Assistant referee was on far side to incident.

So on another night, Plymouth are down to 8 players. But that's another night.
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Re: Referees

Post by Lost in Transportation »

Locky_McLockface wrote:The two-footed challenge should have been a red. And for that one, I think the ref is focusing on it.
It wasn't two footed but over the ball. Nasty.
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Re: Referees

Post by Locky_McLockface »

Lost in Transportation wrote:
Locky_McLockface wrote:The two-footed challenge should have been a red. And for that one, I think the ref is focusing on it.
It wasn't two footed but over the ball. Nasty.
The second leg came around and caught Danny Hollands on his other leg.
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Selsey Bill
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Re: Referees

Post by Selsey Bill »

Lost in Transportation wrote: ... and the fourth official (who appeared to be on work experience from school) as to why they didn't see or help.
The fourth official was Gavin Ward who, believe it or not, is in his mid 40's. He is actually a referee I rate, and would have been a far better man for the main role last night (IMHO).
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Re: Referees

Post by Lost in Transportation »

Locky_McLockface wrote:
Lost in Transportation wrote:
Locky_McLockface wrote:The two-footed challenge should have been a red. And for that one, I think the ref is focusing on it.
It wasn't two footed but over the ball. Nasty.
The second leg came around and caught Danny Hollands on his other leg.
I agree but that's not what I understand as 'two-footed' where both feet have to be used in the tackle/foul. This was a single leg challenge where the foot went over the ball and caught Hollands on the shin. The second leg catches him on the trail-through. Good tackles often see players caught on the trail-through by various body parts but if we call all those two-footed then a lot of tackling goes out of the game.

It was only on the second replay angle that I saw the over-the-top action which should have seen a straight red. I don't necessarily believe there was deliberate intent to go over the ball by the Plymouth player but it was a bad decision and over-reaching that likely caused that to happen. Those challenges from bad decisions need to be red-carded to protect those on the pitch.
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Re: Referees

Post by Pompey Penguin »

Just my opinions to add to the mix.

Matt should have been red carded; however soft, a head-butt it was. It's like gentle slaps to the face, they are what they are and the rules are clear. On Doyle's actions, he is a master at winding people up, shouldn't have got involved in the Hollands/Matt tangle, and probably deserved a yellow card, but not red as it wasn't violent or dangerous. For neither the ref nor the South-side assistant to see the incident is poor, both the cameraman and director for TV knew that was the area of interest and stayed with it, once Doyle got involved it was a potential flashpoint and the point of priority for the officials.

The penalty decision yellow was correct. The corner of the penalty box, with the attacker narrowing the angle all the time and some covering-ish players, is not a clear enough chance to warrant a red. I am just pleased the ref gave the penalty, turning that down would have been the icing on the cake!

The Sawyer tackle is tricky. My thought at the time was that a yellow was correct. The problem is that these sorts of tackles always look worse in slow-motion, especially when they are ankle height and the ankle bends over, and in hindsight they look like reds. I didn't think it reckless, two-footed or too high, just a bit studsy and mistimed, so probably a yellow was right. It would be interesting if over the course of a full season of TV reply decisions, we suddenly saw a lot of those types of tackle becoming sending-offs due to the slow-motion impact effect.

So, given that there was not much else to argue about, I thought the referee did OK overall. The problem was that he let himself down with one of the two big decisions he had to make by not being aware of the game situation.
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Re: Referees

Post by Lost in Transportation »

Here is the tackle:

Image
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