World Cup Yak Thread

[Earl Grey]

I've woken up this morning and it's still true!

We DID win on penalties....hoorah!

This more than makes up for the Formula One catastrophe on Sunday.

MOM split between various players but maybe Maguire, Trippier and Kane the best of them?

[Pompey Penguin]

Before we get too carried away, this is not impressive...

21 May 1923 Sweden v England W 2-4 International Friendly
24 May 1923 Sweden v England W 1-3 Unofficial
17 May 1937 Sweden v England W 0-4 International Friendly
19 Nov 1947 England v Sweden W 4-2 International Friendly
13 May 1949 Sweden v England L 3-1 International Friendly
16 May 1956 Sweden v England D 0-0 International Friendly
28 Oct 1959 England v Sweden L 2-3 International Friendly
16 May 1965 Sweden v England W 1-2 International Friendly
22 May 1968 England v Sweden W 3-1 International Friendly
10 Jun 1979 Sweden v England D 0-0 International Friendly
10 Sep 1986 Sweden v England L 1-0 International Friendly
19 Oct 1988 England v Sweden D 0-0 FIFA World Cup
06 Sep 1989 Sweden v England D 0-0 FIFA World Cup
17 Jun 1992 Sweden v England L 2-1 UEFA European Championship
08 Jun 1995 England v Sweden D 3-3 Umbro Cup
05 Sep 1998 Sweden v England L 2-1 UEFA European Championship
05 Jun 1999 England v Sweden D 0-0 UEFA European Championship
10 Nov 2001 England v Sweden D 1-1 International Friendly
02 Jun 2002 England v Sweden D 1-1 FIFA World Cup
31 Mar 2004 Sweden v England L 1-0 International Friendly
20 Jun 2006 Sweden v England D 2-2 FIFA World Cup
15 Nov 2011 England v Sweden W 1-0 International Friendly
15 Jun 2012 Sweden v England W 2-3 UEFA European Championship
14 Nov 2012 Sweden v England L 4-2 International Friendly

[This Time Next Year]

1 West Germany 1-1 England (4-3) 04/07/90
2 Argentina 2-2 England (4-3) 30/06/98
3 Portugal 0-0 England (3-1) 01/07/06

This wasn't that great a record either...

[This Time Next Year]

Or another way.. undefeated in competitive matches against Sweden in nearly 20 years...

[This Time Next Year]

Also it means absolutely nothing, the last time we played Sweden...

Kane was 19
Dier was 18
Pickford was 18
Stones was 18
Sterling was 17
Loftus-Cheek was 16
Dele was 16
Rashford had just turned 15
Alexander-Arnold had just turned 14

These are different players, playing in a different style, with a different manager, against a team that has changed just as much in the meantime.

[Locky_McLockface]

Another failure for VAR, if you ask me.

I don't see how anyone can argue that Russia's penalty was valid (if you haven't seen it, the ball passes Pique by, and is headed against the back of his arm by the Russian jumping a foot behind him.

And then again, Pique is wrestled to the floor in the penalty area, but no penalty given.

I love the fact that VAR is there, but it has to be consistent.

The Russian penalty was a penalty; whatever happens a defender cannot have his arm stuck up into the air and expect to get away with it when the ball hits the arm. Even in the "act of jumping" there is no reason for an arm to be that high. Strikers will sometimes do an outside-in flip to encourage a defender's arm upwards for just this reason, but I don't think that happened here (thanks to Kevin Ball years ago for showing me how this was done!).

On the Spanish non-penalty, I agreed with you when I saw it and was surprised the VAR didn't give it. However, go and listen to Mark Clattenberg's explanation on ITV. Essentially, both Ramos (for it was he) and the defender are pulling each other's shirts equally (as seen from the front) so no decision either way, then (when viewed from the rear) Ramos has tucked his arm inside the defenders and then spun to make it look like he was bundled over (apparently he has form for doing just this) and so no penalty is correct. Whatever you think of Clattenberg, I trust him on this.

Couldn't disagree with you more re the handball.

The Laws of the Game, taken from https://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affede ... _12_en.pdf state:-

A direct free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any
of the following three offences:
• holds an opponent
• spits at an opponent
• handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own
penalty area)

The ball is propelled towards Pique from directly behind him, from a distance of barely a metre or so. I accept that the single arm in the air isn't a 100%-natural position for it to be in, but the law isn't "The ball hits an arm which is in an unnatural position." Further, I accept that an arm in an unnatural position is often used by referees as evidence of a deliberate block, the salient word there is "evidence". The facts remain that the ball's journey from Russian head to Spanish arm is only approx 1m, and Pique is looking in completely the opposite direction to where the ball is coming from. As far as I can see, these 2 pieces of evidence are more compelling for it being not-deliberate, than the unnatural position of the arm for the counter-argument.

[This Time Next Year]

Couldn't disagree with you more re the handball.

The Laws of the Game, taken from https://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affede ... _12_en.pdf state:-

A direct free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any
of the following three offences:
• holds an opponent
• spits at an opponent
• handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own
penalty area)

The ball is propelled towards Pique from directly behind him, from a distance of barely a metre or so. I accept that the single arm in the air isn't a 100%-natural position for it to be in, but the law isn't "The ball hits an arm which is in an unnatural position." Further, I accept that an arm in an unnatural position is often used by referees as evidence of a deliberate block, the salient word there is "evidence". The facts remain that the ball's journey from Russian head to Spanish arm is only approx 1m, and Pique is looking in completely the opposite direction to where the ball is coming from. As far as I can see, these 2 pieces of evidence are more compelling for it being not-deliberate, than the unnatural position of the arm for the counter-argument.

Watch the replay again, his arm goes up as he jumps, perfectly fine. As the arm starts to naturally lower, he realises it has gone behind him, and the arm is raised again as a second (deliberate) movement. He knows the ball is behind him, he knows that most likely a header on goal is coming from that direction, so he deliberately makes himself as big as possible, to try and do what ever he can to block the header.

What we can't know is whether this second movement of the arm upwards was done as a reflex action in a moment of panic, or if he had the mental clarity to think through the consequences and calculated that he'd be unlikely to be punished for it, as he wasn't looking at the ball.

Either way, it's a deliberate attempt to block (play) the ball with his arm = foul.

[Portchester PFC]

My head hurts this morning

What impressed me most about last nights game was the fact that the players were playing against a team that had little or no respect for the game and showed levels of provocation that would have seen most teams reduced to ten or less players. Yet the England players never rose to that provocation and carried on in workman like fashion.

Even after conceding the goal at the death, that would have buried England teams of old and we would have lost that game for sure, to come back how they did was nothing short of amazing and to go on and win on penalties showed even more mental strength.

Now, whether this is down to the excellent man management of Southgate (i believe it is) or the individual players and their team ethics i am not sure, but i went into this tournament expecting nothing as that is what England has delivered for years, but after that game last night, well, i see positives, not only for this tournament as i expected to not get past the quarters, but for the Euros in two years time. Something special is happening here.

PS, the Colombians showed us what most of the South American teams have so far, they will stoop to any level to get a result, absolutely shocking attitude towards the game last night. The penalty incident where they almost assaulted the ref for a considerable time and whilst doing that craftily stamped on and dug up the penalty stop was a disgrace and the ref, well, he completely lost the game, should of booked loads of them for that episode alone.

It might be coming home.....

[Locky_McLockface]

Couldn't disagree with you more re the handball.

The Laws of the Game, taken from https://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affede ... _12_en.pdf state:-

A direct free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any
of the following three offences:
• holds an opponent
• spits at an opponent
• handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own
penalty area)

The ball is propelled towards Pique from directly behind him, from a distance of barely a metre or so. I accept that the single arm in the air isn't a 100%-natural position for it to be in, but the law isn't "The ball hits an arm which is in an unnatural position." Further, I accept that an arm in an unnatural position is often used by referees as evidence of a deliberate block, the salient word there is "evidence". The facts remain that the ball's journey from Russian head to Spanish arm is only approx 1m, and Pique is looking in completely the opposite direction to where the ball is coming from. As far as I can see, these 2 pieces of evidence are more compelling for it being not-deliberate, than the unnatural position of the arm for the counter-argument.

Watch the replay again, his arm goes up as he jumps, perfectly fine. As the arm starts to naturally lower, he realises it has gone behind him, and the arm is raised again as a second (deliberate) movement. He knows the ball is behind him, he knows that most likely a header on goal is coming from that direction, so he deliberately makes himself as big as possible, to try and do what ever he can to block the header.

What we can't know is whether this second movement of the arm upwards was done as a reflex action in a moment of panic, or if he had the mental clarity to think through the consequences and calculated that he'd be unlikely to be punished for it, as he wasn't looking at the ball.

Either way, it's a deliberate attempt to block (play) the ball with his arm = foul.

[youtube][/youtube]

Slow-mo replay is at about 42s. The ball is past him, then back to his arm in half a second or less. I don't see any second movement of his arm at all, sorry.

[This Time Next Year]

Shows it clearer. If you're still struggling to see it, watch the movement of his right arm for comparison...

[Portchesterblue1]

So what you are saying is that everyone you jump in the air the natural position for your arms or at least one of them is to be straight up above your head?

[Locky_McLockface]

So what you are saying is that everyone you jump in the air the natural position for your arms or at least one of them is to be straight up above your head?

Not at all.

As I said previously, the rule for handball is not "hits the arm or hand when in an unnatural position", the rule is "deliberately handles the ball." It is irrelevant how his arm arrived in that position. There is another Spanish player immediately in front of Pique at the time, perhaps this made Pique's jump more awkward, and the arm position is a consequence. Perhaps he's waving to his mother. I don't know.

If the ball arrives on Pique's arm from behind him, having travelled at speed from a metre or so away, I cannot see how that is Pique deliberately attempting to block the ball with his hand/arm.

[uspompeyfan]

So what you are saying is that everyone you jump in the air the natural position for your arms or at least one of them is to be straight up above your head?

Not at all.

As I said previously, the rule for handball is not "hits the arm or hand when in an unnatural position", the rule is "deliberately handles the ball." It is irrelevant how his arm arrived in that position. There is another Spanish player immediately in front of Pique at the time, perhaps this made Pique's jump more awkward, and the arm position is a consequence. Perhaps he's waving to his mother. I don't know.

If the ball arrives on Pique's arm from behind him, having travelled at speed from a metre or so away, I cannot see how that is Pique deliberately attempting to block the ball with his hand/arm.

I fear that this argument will not be as interesting as the 'did the ball cross the line in '66' in 30 years
FWIW - The hand stopped a goal bound effort that the keeper would probably not have stopped, which could have resulted in a sending off if the handball was deliberate.

[Locky_McLockface]

So what you are saying is that everyone you jump in the air the natural position for your arms or at least one of them is to be straight up above your head?

Not at all.

As I said previously, the rule for handball is not "hits the arm or hand when in an unnatural position", the rule is "deliberately handles the ball." It is irrelevant how his arm arrived in that position. There is another Spanish player immediately in front of Pique at the time, perhaps this made Pique's jump more awkward, and the arm position is a consequence. Perhaps he's waving to his mother. I don't know.

If the ball arrives on Pique's arm from behind him, having travelled at speed from a metre or so away, I cannot see how that is Pique deliberately attempting to block the ball with his hand/arm.

I fear that this argument will not be as interesting as the 'did the ball cross the line in '66' in 30 years
FWIW - The hand stopped a goal bound effort that the keeper would probably not have stopped, which could have resulted in a sending off if the handball was deliberate.

Yes, Mum, sorry Mum.

[Portchesterblue1]

But if you are arguing that it doesn't matter where the arms are if it's that close, if a winger is about to cross you just spread your arms wide and hope it hits them then, and that isn't handball ??