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#894928
Have to say I'm surprised there has been a lack of protest on here, and with the Brits in general over govt handling of the virus thang. So allow me to start the argument. I shall add Americans haven't done much better but there is a spark or 2 of protest.

This is a giant over-reaction led by the press and rather meekly followed by the people and their govt. Remember also that the medical field is ONLY interested in saving lives and not at all interested in the greater repercussions of ongoing shutdowns because that's their thing....their job. Also remember that the press and the clever doctors are all preaching to you from the perspective of people still getting paid to work.

Firstly, let me share a tragic FACT with y'all. Are you sitting down?... because this is a tough one.
We're all going to die.
There....I've said it. Eventually, at some point, everyone dies. Perhaps most of us shuffle off quietly in our sleep, some succumb to illness, heart attack, cancer. Some bow out before their time in car wrecks etc. And some die from new virus thingies. But....we all die.

Now, let me say, I understand completely the flattening of the curve thing so that our healthcare is not overwhelmed.

Now, here's some FACTS as I understand them.

1. The death rate here is hard to pin down as soooo many people get it but have zero symptoms or very mild symptoms. Thus published death rates of 2%-12% are BS as they are simply positive tests vs deaths and in no way account for the gazzilions of peeps that had it / or had it mildly and were never tested. By my best math and reading of proper news, the death rate as best as I can figure is somewhere between 0.1 and 0.2%
2. European stats suggest 50% of deaths were in nursing homes. Now, whilst all deaths are tragic (remember the opener...we all die) obviously most deaths are those souls on their last legs anyways.
3. Of the rest of the poor souls that pass on, healthcare workers, prison populations and high density cities make up the bulk of the rest of the casualties. Meaning current restrictions on life simply don't apply to most of the population.
4. 50,000 deaths in the USA!....that's a lot!....except it isn't with a population of 360 million
5. All this carp we are going through isn't changing ANYTHING AT ALL, other than the date you will eventually get exposed. Eventually, everyone will get exposed and the result of that will be what it is, but the quicker this happens, the quicker "Herd Immunity" is gained and we all move on until the next pandemic 100 years from now.
6. Hers a quote from the US CDC (centers for disease control) last year on FLU

" The current flu season started at the beginning of October and lasts until May. As of Feb. 9, between 15.4 million and 17.8 million people nationwide have caught the flu, the Centers for Disease and Control reported.
Two million of those cases came in the week that ended Feb. 9. The CDC warned that was the highest flu activity it has seen this season, USA Today reported.
There have been 11,600 to 19,100 deaths so far.
A total of 34 influenza-associated pediatric deaths have been reported to CDC for this season. For the 2017-2018 season, 185 pediatric flu deaths were reported.
Between 184,000 and 221,000 people have been hospitalized with the flu so far this season.
The CDC said the flu typically kills 12,000 to 56,000 people in the U.S. in a year.
“The number of deaths we’re seeing is a little bit surprising,” CDC epidemiologist Brendan Flannery told the Wall Street Journal. “It’s a reminder that flu can be severe.”


those numbers sound a bit familiar???

Now, as much as Trump is a total F@#tard, he's right when he says "the cure cant be worse that the disease."

I'll leave you with this:
Would you shut down your country, bankrupt a shedload of people, ruin small business and the life's work of many people, trash the future dreams of a shedload of citizens, increase suicide, increase drug addiction/despair, empty the bankrolls of millions...….for 1 life.???
Answer: NO

For a million lives???

Answer: YES

So, there's a number isn't there?...So......what is it?

Well, I say we've reached it and sensible people have the information they need to act how they wish and its time to open up and move on.

Almost lastly, I shall offer conjecture that all this social distancing and hand washing will prove to be disastrous. We, as a species, are supposed to contact germs / viruses / bacteria in smallish doses. This is how we gain immunities. This is how the world works.

I'll end with.... if you've had a personal tragedy or have a family member / friend that hasn't pulled through then I apologize. This thread is meant to take the "personnel" out of the equation.
#894930
Brilliant thoughtful and sensitive post. I'm going to think before I reply.
#894931
Some good points. I have one of my own. Tough decisions have to be made but if we’re accepting that more people will get ill and that’s ok then what do you do about the increase of people who become ill? Do you just not bother treating them at all? How do you expect the NHS to cope if there are a lot more cases or do we just have some Logan’s run style culling for everyone over the age of 60?

In regards to herd immunity is that a realistic goal? There is growing concern that you don’t become immune after having it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52424263
#894934
I get the comparison with flu but its a flawed comparison. Many of us get vaccinated against flu every Autumn. Covid 19 as yet there is no vaccine & its sending people, a lot of people to an early grave. My mate's brother came so close to losing his life to it @ 53 yrs old. He's a fit & healthy Policeman ffs.
Yes we're all going to die but personally @ 61 I have a lot of life left in me so I'd rather not go just yet.
Herd immunity-no guarantee you wont get it again.
Overreaction-that's just ridiculous. Cincinatti Kid If you really believe that then go out in NYC & mingle with as many people as you can-good luck!!
I mean here I am getting letters from my gastro specialist nurse, who I trust implicitly , saying if I come into contact with it I'm @ risk of severe complications because I'm immunosuppressed. I'd rather believe the experts honestly.
I did think about injecting myself with Dettol & catching a good dose of skin cancer @ a tanning studio just for good measure but thought "nah". :rofl :thumb
#894936
The Cincinnati Kid wrote:Have to say I'm surprised there has been a lack of protest on here, and with the Brits in general over govt handling of the virus thang. So allow me to start the argument. I shall add Americans haven't done much better but there is a spark or 2 of protest.

This is a giant over-reaction led by the press and rather meekly followed by the people and their govt. Remember also that the medical field is ONLY interested in saving lives and not at all interested in the greater repercussions of ongoing shutdowns because that's their thing....their job. Also remember that the press and the clever doctors are all preaching to you from the perspective of people still getting paid to work.

Firstly, let me share a tragic FACT with y'all. Are you sitting down?... because this is a tough one.
We're all going to die.
There....I've said it. Eventually, at some point, everyone dies. Perhaps most of us shuffle off quietly in our sleep, some succumb to illness, heart attack, cancer. Some bow out before their time in car wrecks etc. And some die from new virus thingies. But....we all die.

Now, let me say, I understand completely the flattening of the curve thing so that our healthcare is not overwhelmed.

Now, here's some FACTS as I understand them.

1. The death rate here is hard to pin down as soooo many people get it but have zero symptoms or very mild symptoms. Thus published death rates of 2%-12% are BS as they are simply positive tests vs deaths and in no way account for the gazzilions of peeps that had it / or had it mildly and were never tested. By my best math and reading of proper news, the death rate as best as I can figure is somewhere between 0.1 and 0.2%
2. European stats suggest 50% of deaths were in nursing homes. Now, whilst all deaths are tragic (remember the opener...we all die) obviously most deaths are those souls on their last legs anyways.
3. Of the rest of the poor souls that pass on, healthcare workers, prison populations and high density cities make up the bulk of the rest of the casualties. Meaning current restrictions on life simply don't apply to most of the population.
4. 50,000 deaths in the USA!....that's a lot!....except it isn't with a population of 360 million
5. All this carp we are going through isn't changing ANYTHING AT ALL, other than the date you will eventually get exposed. Eventually, everyone will get exposed and the result of that will be what it is, but the quicker this happens, the quicker "Herd Immunity" is gained and we all move on until the next pandemic 100 years from now.
6. Hers a quote from the US CDC (centers for disease control) last year on FLU

" The current flu season started at the beginning of October and lasts until May. As of Feb. 9, between 15.4 million and 17.8 million people nationwide have caught the flu, the Centers for Disease and Control reported.
Two million of those cases came in the week that ended Feb. 9. The CDC warned that was the highest flu activity it has seen this season, USA Today reported.
There have been 11,600 to 19,100 deaths so far.
A total of 34 influenza-associated pediatric deaths have been reported to CDC for this season. For the 2017-2018 season, 185 pediatric flu deaths were reported.
Between 184,000 and 221,000 people have been hospitalized with the flu so far this season.
The CDC said the flu typically kills 12,000 to 56,000 people in the U.S. in a year.
“The number of deaths we’re seeing is a little bit surprising,” CDC epidemiologist Brendan Flannery told the Wall Street Journal. “It’s a reminder that flu can be severe.”


those numbers sound a bit familiar???

Now, as much as Trump is a total F@#tard, he's right when he says "the cure cant be worse that the disease."

I'll leave you with this:
Would you shut down your country, bankrupt a shedload of people, ruin small business and the life's work of many people, trash the future dreams of a shedload of citizens, increase suicide, increase drug addiction/despair, empty the bankrolls of millions...….for 1 life.???
Answer: NO

For a million lives???

Answer: YES

So, there's a number isn't there?...So......what is it?

Well, I say we've reached it and sensible people have the information they need to act how they wish and its time to open up and move on.

Almost lastly, I shall offer conjecture that all this social distancing and hand washing will prove to be disastrous. We, as a species, are supposed to contact germs / viruses / bacteria in smallish doses. This is how we gain immunities. This is how the world works.

I'll end with.... if you've had a personal tragedy or have a family member / friend that hasn't pulled through then I apologize. This thread is meant to take the "personnel" out of the equation.

From the subject line through almost every point, this post shows the most appalling ignorance of the crisis.
More than that, it is an insult to the NHS workers striving to keep us alive.
Thank God I don't live in America = another planet.
#894937
"I'll leave you with this:
Would you shut down your country, bankrupt a shedload of people, ruin small business and the life's work of many people, trash the future dreams of a shedload of citizens, increase suicide, increase drug addiction/despair, empty the bankrolls of millions...….for 1 life.???
Answer: NO

For a million lives???

Answer: YES

So, there's a number isn't there?...So......what is it?"

That's the call that politicians have to make. I don't envy them.
#894938
Dinksy wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:28 pm
The Cincinnati Kid wrote:Have to say I'm surprised there has been a lack of protest on here, and with the Brits in general over govt handling of the virus thang. So allow me to start the argument. I shall add Americans haven't done much better but there is a spark or 2 of protest.

This is a giant over-reaction led by the press and rather meekly followed by the people and their govt. Remember also that the medical field is ONLY interested in saving lives and not at all interested in the greater repercussions of ongoing shutdowns because that's their thing....their job. Also remember that the press and the clever doctors are all preaching to you from the perspective of people still getting paid to work.

Firstly, let me share a tragic FACT with y'all. Are you sitting down?... because this is a tough one.
We're all going to die.
There....I've said it. Eventually, at some point, everyone dies. Perhaps most of us shuffle off quietly in our sleep, some succumb to illness, heart attack, cancer. Some bow out before their time in car wrecks etc. And some die from new virus thingies. But....we all die.

Now, let me say, I understand completely the flattening of the curve thing so that our healthcare is not overwhelmed.

Now, here's some FACTS as I understand them.

1. The death rate here is hard to pin down as soooo many people get it but have zero symptoms or very mild symptoms. Thus published death rates of 2%-12% are BS as they are simply positive tests vs deaths and in no way account for the gazzilions of peeps that had it / or had it mildly and were never tested. By my best math and reading of proper news, the death rate as best as I can figure is somewhere between 0.1 and 0.2%
2. European stats suggest 50% of deaths were in nursing homes. Now, whilst all deaths are tragic (remember the opener...we all die) obviously most deaths are those souls on their last legs anyways.
3. Of the rest of the poor souls that pass on, healthcare workers, prison populations and high density cities make up the bulk of the rest of the casualties. Meaning current restrictions on life simply don't apply to most of the population.
4. 50,000 deaths in the USA!....that's a lot!....except it isn't with a population of 360 million
5. All this carp we are going through isn't changing ANYTHING AT ALL, other than the date you will eventually get exposed. Eventually, everyone will get exposed and the result of that will be what it is, but the quicker this happens, the quicker "Herd Immunity" is gained and we all move on until the next pandemic 100 years from now.
6. Hers a quote from the US CDC (centers for disease control) last year on FLU

" The current flu season started at the beginning of October and lasts until May. As of Feb. 9, between 15.4 million and 17.8 million people nationwide have caught the flu, the Centers for Disease and Control reported.
Two million of those cases came in the week that ended Feb. 9. The CDC warned that was the highest flu activity it has seen this season, USA Today reported.
There have been 11,600 to 19,100 deaths so far.
A total of 34 influenza-associated pediatric deaths have been reported to CDC for this season. For the 2017-2018 season, 185 pediatric flu deaths were reported.
Between 184,000 and 221,000 people have been hospitalized with the flu so far this season.
The CDC said the flu typically kills 12,000 to 56,000 people in the U.S. in a year.
“The number of deaths we’re seeing is a little bit surprising,” CDC epidemiologist Brendan Flannery told the Wall Street Journal. “It’s a reminder that flu can be severe.”


those numbers sound a bit familiar???

Now, as much as Trump is a total F@#tard, he's right when he says "the cure cant be worse that the disease."

I'll leave you with this:
Would you shut down your country, bankrupt a shedload of people, ruin small business and the life's work of many people, trash the future dreams of a shedload of citizens, increase suicide, increase drug addiction/despair, empty the bankrolls of millions...….for 1 life.???
Answer: NO

For a million lives???

Answer: YES

So, there's a number isn't there?...So......what is it?

Well, I say we've reached it and sensible people have the information they need to act how they wish and its time to open up and move on.

Almost lastly, I shall offer conjecture that all this social distancing and hand washing will prove to be disastrous. We, as a species, are supposed to contact germs / viruses / bacteria in smallish doses. This is how we gain immunities. This is how the world works.

I'll end with.... if you've had a personal tragedy or have a family member / friend that hasn't pulled through then I apologize. This thread is meant to take the "personnel" out of the equation.

From the subject line through almost every point, this post shows the most appalling ignorance of the crisis.
More than that, it is an insult to the NHS workers striving to keep us alive.
Thank God I don't live in America = another planet.
Feel free to highlite the bit that insults medical workers. Also the bit that says little old me represents the opinion of the entire United States.
Personally I refrain from tacky insults against other posters. Its what makes this board fairly unique in its lack of cheap shots from behind the wall of anonymity. I either argue the point or move on to another thread. But that's just me.
#894939
New Forester wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:51 pm
"I'll leave you with this:
Would you shut down your country, bankrupt a shedload of people, ruin small business and the life's work of many people, trash the future dreams of a shedload of citizens, increase suicide, increase drug addiction/despair, empty the bankrolls of millions...….for 1 life.???
Answer: NO

For a million lives???

Answer: YES

So, there's a number isn't there?...So......what is it?"

That's the call that politicians have to make. I don't envy them.
Very true. Every govt is in a no win situation as the press hounds will be on them regardless of actions. I bet there are more than a few that would like to do what I just said and say similar in private, including Boris before he got sick and including Trump before press / public pressure...but there's just no way you can come out and say that as a politician ….assuming you like your career.
#894940
pompeygunner wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:28 pm
I get the comparison with flu but its a flawed comparison. Many of us get vaccinated against flu every Autumn. Covid 19 as yet there is no vaccine & its sending people, a lot of people to an early grave. My mate's brother came so close to losing his life to it @ 53 yrs old. He's a fit & healthy Policeman ffs.
Yes we're all going to die but personally @ 61 I have a lot of life left in me so I'd rather not go just yet.
Herd immunity-no guarantee you wont get it again.
Overreaction-that's just ridiculous. Cincinatti Kid If you really believe that then go out in NYC & mingle with as many people as you can-good luck!!
I mean here I am getting letters from my gastro specialist nurse, who I trust implicitly , saying if I come into contact with it I'm @ risk of severe complications because I'm immunosuppressed. I'd rather believe the experts honestly.
I did think about injecting myself with Dettol & catching a good dose of skin cancer @ a tanning studio just for good measure but thought "nah". :rofl :thumb
Dettol....bwahahahaha...what an ignorant moron that man is.
Just to be clear on the rest of your post....As I said near the end, you , being a sensible person have been given all the information you need to protect yourself and are following it. Nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with being sensible. But why cant I go get a haircut? Do we really think our barbers are not going round houses to cut hair? As for going to NYC and mingling well of course not. Its the same as I'll walk across the street where I live but I'm not going to footsy across the Interstate. Be sensible, but not over sensible. I'm not going to hire 2 lookouts and a traffic cop to cross my local avenue.
The crux of my point is ..How long will we keep doing this? How much of a price are we willing to pay? Lets take the reason we are all here on this board for starters....Football! ...How long will it be before PFC cease to exist because I cant go to a football match anymore?
I'll go back to my numbers again....would you be OK with the demise of PFC to save the life of 1 elderly person?.....probably not.....how about 5000 people.....probably!.....So where is that number?...what is our tolerance? I'm saying its pretty much inevitable that everyone will see some exposure and we might be better off getting done with it. That doesn't mean we should all go round licking door handles and accelerating that process.
#894941
Here's another interesting way of looking at the situation.
Every single one of us, myself included to an extent, that is not going to the barber, the pub, the footy match, the golf course, manicurist or gym, are forcing unemployment / bankruptcy and financial despair on all our friends and neighbors and fellow citizens that work at those locations.

Here's what I did prior to posting the original:
Saturday I get a call. Company X wants me to drive to N.Carolina (900 mile round trip), go to a guys house, pick up on of those fancy kids electric cars, and return it to their HQ in Dayton OH. (I transport strange stuff long distance for a living) I take the mission and the whole thing takes about 18 hrs.
Its my habit to fuel at truck stops for various reasons I wont bore you with, and on my trip I stop 4 times for fuel, coffee, including once for food.
The precautions I took:
Social distancing around people, mask on interacting with N. Carolina guy, hot food instead of the usual cold sub and at every stop, either gloves which were tossed after the visit or Clorox wipes after the visit before driving onward.
In this way, I maintain my income, the customer gets what they want, and every stop I make generates a bit of revenue and gets to pay employees
Why cant I do this at the barbers shop, the golf course, the bar etc?
Open back up and allow us to evaluate our own risk, use our own common sense and have business owners take their own sensible precautions.
I'm not going to the barbers where 20 peeps are waiting and barber guy isn't masked....but if the shop takes sensible precautions....I'm in.
At the end of the day, I don't think we will defeat nature but we can delay and mitigate without disastrous financial and social consequences.

Let me add this admittedly cherry picked newsfeed on a relatively small sampling from LA County in California.

"Over the last week, two overlapping teams of scientists in California released the first results of big antibody surveys to determine how many people have already been infected with the coronavirus. Their estimates were jaw-dropping.
In Silicon Valley, the true number of coronavirus infections could be 50 to 85 times higher than the number of reported ones. And in Los Angeles County, there might be 28 to 55 times more people infected than the official count."

Of course not proof positive but this and similar testing done elsewhere in the world pretty much suggest y'all have already been exposed.
#894942
Wow, this is a deep one.

Firstly the subject title. Very emotive and much like the "Rather dead than Red" phrase that used to be rolled out in the 70s. I disagree with both as whilst you are alive you can still fight another day.

Other points...

I appreciate Kid that you tried to express your points from a non-personal perspective but for many it is hard to distance it from the personal level. My son is fit 23 year old and yet he got Covid-19 pretty badly to the extent that he was struggling for breath for 2 days. Not pleasant at all. Also, I am sure that the majority of the members of this forum have elderly loved ones who are going t die, as you point out, but I am sure we all hope it will be later rather than sooner.

The comparison with flu is heavily flawed. Yes the death rates did start off pretty similarly to an average flu year but now the number of people dying from respiratory illnesses are far greater than an average flu year, and bear in mind that numbers are being kept artificially low by social distancing.

Does it only affect those who were due to die soon anyway? NO!!! Healthy front-line medical staff are dying at an alarming rate, Bus drivers (who are exposed to many hundreds of people) are dying at an alarming rate and the examples go on and on.

So would I rather die on my feet or live on my knees? No brainer. This will not be for ever so happy to be on my knees for the foreseeable future if it means that I, and the majority of people, will be able to live on my feet again soon.

Next to final point... Not something I have said much recently but I agree with Dinksy's comment! :thumb

Final point... Stay safe everybody.
#894944
FYI I was listening to the Redskins "Keep on Keepin' on" when returning from NC and the thread title is stolen from that tune which in turn was stolen, I think ,, from some S. American / Cuban / Mexican red revolutionary, I forget which one. Anyways...its just a thread headline to grab attention....mission accomplished!

Also, I went out of my way to take the personal effects on the individual out of the situation. Obviously if you have been ill or are fighting on the front lines or live in NYC's tough areas, you have a different perspective. Point being, most of us are not in that situation.
This is why, I think, our leaders can't give the real truth which, from the perspective of this post is essentially: The current cost of mitigation is too high, the death rate is very low, were all going to get exposed anyways or we've all already been exposed.

I'll also mention a couple of posters have poo pood my Flu comparison . I'd say to you....go back and re-read that flu bit, take out the word 'flu" , insert covid, and adjust the dates a bit. I don't see much difference. though i'll concede its not exactly the same. Its not a million miles away though and we don't do anything at all to mitigate those illnesses / deaths with regard to distancing and shutting down biz in the flu season. Nor do we enforce vaccinations for flu like we do for the various kids stuff we all get. I guess those 50,000 people don't count?....either that or we accept those casualties as part of "normal"

Lastly, i'll mention that if this was Ebola with a death rate of what?60%....I'd have a different perspective.....but it isn't imho.
#894947
There's one huge problem with getting the world back to work, and nowhere more so than in the good old US of A. Who's going to pick up the litigation costs when customers start suing businesses, and employees start suing their employers when they catch Covid because they went back to work? And likewise when employers start suing governments because they said it was okay for them to re-commence operations?
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