"Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

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GreenBlue
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by GreenBlue »

There is a clearly a divide in opinions here 'a la' Leave v Remain, President or clown, 'Marmite love v Marmite hate', 'Pompey v those other lot' etc. Therefore, it is unlikely that anyone's views are going to be greatly swayed by anybody's opinions in here.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion and so every argument is a valid one however some are refusing to acknowledge other's views that counter their points.

Here are the key points I am taking from this situation and am happy to be corrected on any of them.

Virtually all of the scientists and doctors are saying the same thing regarding social distancing and are in support of the current lock-down. It is mainly business owners, many of whom run our media, and those with invested interests who are calling for an rushed end to the lock-down. The clown President is clearly looking at this from the perspective of a businessman.

The US and UK are the largest and 5th largest economies in the world. yes, many will take a massive financial hit but people in our countries will not starve on the streets. I do worry about some developing countries and the impact it will have on their people.

No Shot Sherlock make an excellent point in countering The Cincinnati Kid's comparisons between Covid-19 deaths and other forms of death by correctly stating that he was comparing annual stats against 2 monthly stats. In addition to that point, the 2-month figure for Covid-19 has been kept much lower due to the very fact of the lock-down. What would it have been if there had been no lock-down? Cincinnati Kid, I appreciate that you are playing Devil's Advocate here however I have not see your response to these points.

Flu vs Covid-19 argument is a non-argument. Flat Earth vs Spherical. All scientist and doctors agree that there is no comparison.

Things are moving incredibly quickly with research on Covid-19 and vaccines are likely to be in place a lot quicker than originally hoped.

People's views on this dreadful disease change when you have had someone close fighting against it or even more when a loved one has battled it personally.

Stay safe everyone. This will all end.

I love Marmite by the way.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by New Forester »

How about the subject of the media focus in the UK about deaths in care homes.

Average age of residents is 87. Average stay was 462 days. So that average stay has reduced. To what? I hope to get to 87. More would be a bonus.

I had two brothers in law in care homes. I wish they had died before they went in. One had a severe stroke and suffered terribly for two years. One had Alzheimer’s, knew no one, and suffered for seven years. For everyone devastated by the loss of a loved one in a care home, more are relieved and dare we say it, delighted with a substantial inheritance which will enrich their lives.
Avatar: Harry 'Brusher' Mills (19 March 1840 – 1 July 1905) was a hermit, resident in the New Forest in Hampshire, England, who made his living as a snake-catcher. He became a local celebrity and an attraction for visitors to the New Forest.No relation as far as I know :thumb
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by GreenBlue »

New Forester wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 12:21 pm For everyone devastated by the loss of a loved one in a care home, more are relieved and dare we say it, delighted with a substantial inheritance which will enrich their lives.
A bold statement, New Forester.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by eltorrro »

GreenBlue wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 12:31 pm
New Forester wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 12:21 pm For everyone devastated by the loss of a loved one in a care home, more are relieved and dare we say it, delighted with a substantial inheritance which will enrich their lives.
A bold statement, New Forester.
Yes, it is a bold statement but sadly is more to the truth of the matter. I have a friend whose mother had dementia and was admitted to a 'home'..he visited her every week accompanied by his father until his father became ill and eventually was admitted to the same 'home'. Every visit made to the home his mother, who did not recognise him, explained that she was married to another patient (not his Dad)..how distressing was that? His father died shortly after but his mother lived for another 5 years during which time all proceeds from house sale/savings had been spent (OP homes now costing over 1k a week?)
I don't know if I agree with 'delighted' but certainly the old saying 'blessed relief' springs to mind...and not just for the patients!!
As already said, we won't all agree but one has an opinion. 8)
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by New Forester »

I had a very dear friend who died two weeks ago. Not from coronavirus. The past 5 years has been a nightmare for him and his wife. Forget the word delighted. His wife right now is happier than she has been for years. She is relieved the suffering and uncertainty is over and no longer worrying about their/her financial position. Death is not always unwelcome.
Avatar: Harry 'Brusher' Mills (19 March 1840 – 1 July 1905) was a hermit, resident in the New Forest in Hampshire, England, who made his living as a snake-catcher. He became a local celebrity and an attraction for visitors to the New Forest.No relation as far as I know :thumb
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by GreenBlue »

eltorrro wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 2:04 pm
GreenBlue wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 12:31 pm
New Forester wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 12:21 pm For everyone devastated by the loss of a loved one in a care home, more are relieved and dare we say it, delighted with a substantial inheritance which will enrich their lives.
A bold statement, New Forester.
I don't know if I agree with 'delighted' but certainly the old saying 'blessed relief' springs to mind...and not just for the patients!!
As already said, we won't all agree but one has an opinion. 8)
I think we probably agree on more than may at first appear now that you have reconsidered the word "delighted". If the word "more" in your original post was replaced with "some" or even "many" our views may be really quite similar.

I also appreciate that most of people's comments on this topic are made in the best interests even if I don't always agree with the way they are worded.

Stay Safe New Forester. :thumb
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by The Cincinnati Kid »

GreenBlue wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 12:06 pm There is a clearly a divide in opinions here 'a la' Leave v Remain, President or clown, 'Marmite love v Marmite hate', 'Pompey v those other lot' etc. Therefore, it is unlikely that anyone's views are going to be greatly swayed by anybody's opinions in here.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion and so every argument is a valid one however some are refusing to acknowledge other's views that counter their points.

Here are the key points I am taking from this situation and am happy to be corrected on any of them.

Virtually all of the scientists and doctors are saying the same thing regarding social distancing and are in support of the current lock-down. It is mainly business owners, many of whom run our media, and those with invested interests who are calling for an rushed end to the lock-down. The clown President is clearly looking at this from the perspective of a businessman.

The US and UK are the largest and 5th largest economies in the world. yes, many will take a massive financial hit but people in our countries will not starve on the streets. I do worry about some developing countries and the impact it will have on their people.

No Shot Sherlock make an excellent point in countering The Cincinnati Kid's comparisons between Covid-19 deaths and other forms of death by correctly stating that he was comparing annual stats against 2 monthly stats. In addition to that point, the 2-month figure for Covid-19 has been kept much lower due to the very fact of the lock-down. What would it have been if there had been no lock-down? Cincinnati Kid, I appreciate that you are playing Devil's Advocate here however I have not see your response to these points.

Flu vs Covid-19 argument is a non-argument. Flat Earth vs Spherical. All scientist and doctors agree that there is no comparison.

Things are moving incredibly quickly with research on Covid-19 and vaccines are likely to be in place a lot quicker than originally hoped.

People's views on this dreadful disease change when you have had someone close fighting against it or even more when a loved one has battled it personally.

Stay safe everyone. This will all end.

I love Marmite by the way.
good points other than marmite. Ya'll are missing my point on Flu which is, we don't do everything we could do to reduce the numbers.....we accept. Also, I haven't advocated for no lockdown. the original post accepts flattening the curve.
In citing other death rates I'm more interested in comparing what we do about them. Take the 480000 smoking deaths for instance. Of course I'm aware that smoking is a choice for most of those numbers, but nonetheless, that's a LOT of people.
Yet we don't ban cigarettes. Sure we do research, we issue warnings, we don't sell to minors etc etc. But we accept.
I could say the same about cars. We have a lot of sensible rules but we don't mandate 25mph speed limits or armored vehicles for all.
All I'm saying is what's in the original post. unless you hide,again and again forever or until a vaccine comes along, ultimately you will be exposed and what will be will be. This all started with flattening the curve to ensure our respective healthcare was not overwhelmed. Well, I live in a city of 1 million in a state with 10 million and 3 large cities and 5 smaller ones. I don't know anyone who has died, I don't know anyone who has it, I know 3 people who have tested negative and I possibly know a shedload of people that had it but didn't know(cant wait for the reliable antibody test which will tell us all a lot) and the healthcare systems hospitals are not overwhelmed.
My number one concern here is the power of govt. Why have they decided the local golf course be closed? I don't even play the game but 2 people meandering around a wide open space doesn't seem like a disaster waiting to happen to me.
By all means take sensible precautions like smoking and cars. No large crowds at sports, limit numbers and seating at the movies, make me wear a mask at the store....all good. I've got the info I need, can I go play golf now please.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by GreenBlue »

The Cincinnati Kid wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 4:01 pm good points other than marmite.
We will never see eye to eye on that one then :rofl
The Cincinnati Kid wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 4:01 pm Why have they decided the local golf course be closed? I don't even play the game but ..... can I go play golf now please.
:lol:
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by Sam_Brown »

Mr D Nuts wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 9:57 am When did 'flatten the curve' turn into 'hide until it's gone' ?

About the same time herd immunity came off the table I think.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by Sam_Brown »

The Cincinnati Kid wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 4:01 pm
GreenBlue wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 12:06 pm There is a clearly a divide in opinions here 'a la' Leave v Remain, President or clown, 'Marmite love v Marmite hate', 'Pompey v those other lot' etc. Therefore, it is unlikely that anyone's views are going to be greatly swayed by anybody's opinions in here.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion and so every argument is a valid one however some are refusing to acknowledge other's views that counter their points.

Here are the key points I am taking from this situation and am happy to be corrected on any of them.

Virtually all of the scientists and doctors are saying the same thing regarding social distancing and are in support of the current lock-down. It is mainly business owners, many of whom run our media, and those with invested interests who are calling for an rushed end to the lock-down. The clown President is clearly looking at this from the perspective of a businessman.

The US and UK are the largest and 5th largest economies in the world. yes, many will take a massive financial hit but people in our countries will not starve on the streets. I do worry about some developing countries and the impact it will have on their people.

No Shot Sherlock make an excellent point in countering The Cincinnati Kid's comparisons between Covid-19 deaths and other forms of death by correctly stating that he was comparing annual stats against 2 monthly stats. In addition to that point, the 2-month figure for Covid-19 has been kept much lower due to the very fact of the lock-down. What would it have been if there had been no lock-down? Cincinnati Kid, I appreciate that you are playing Devil's Advocate here however I have not see your response to these points.

Flu vs Covid-19 argument is a non-argument. Flat Earth vs Spherical. All scientist and doctors agree that there is no comparison.

Things are moving incredibly quickly with research on Covid-19 and vaccines are likely to be in place a lot quicker than originally hoped.

People's views on this dreadful disease change when you have had someone close fighting against it or even more when a loved one has battled it personally.

Stay safe everyone. This will all end.

I love Marmite by the way.
good points other than marmite. Ya'll are missing my point on Flu which is, we don't do everything we could do to reduce the numbers.....we accept. Also, I haven't advocated for no lockdown. the original post accepts flattening the curve.
In citing other death rates I'm more interested in comparing what we do about them. Take the 480000 smoking deaths for instance. Of course I'm aware that smoking is a choice for most of those numbers, but nonetheless, that's a LOT of people.
Yet we don't ban cigarettes. Sure we do research, we issue warnings, we don't sell to minors etc etc. But we accept.
I could say the same about cars. We have a lot of sensible rules but we don't mandate 25mph speed limits or armored vehicles for all.
All I'm saying is what's in the original post. unless you hide,again and again forever or until a vaccine comes along, ultimately you will be exposed and what will be will be. This all started with flattening the curve to ensure our respective healthcare was not overwhelmed. Well, I live in a city of 1 million in a state with 10 million and 3 large cities and 5 smaller ones. I don't know anyone who has died, I don't know anyone who has it, I know 3 people who have tested negative and I possibly know a shedload of people that had it but didn't know(cant wait for the reliable antibody test which will tell us all a lot) and the healthcare systems hospitals are not overwhelmed.
My number one concern here is the power of govt. Why have they decided the local golf course be closed? I don't even play the game but 2 people meandering around a wide open space doesn't seem like a disaster waiting to happen to me.
By all means take sensible precautions like smoking and cars. No large crowds at sports, limit numbers and seating at the movies, make me wear a mask at the store....all good. I've got the info I need, can I go play golf now please.

The crux of the issue is that the answer to when to lift the lockdown is fairly subjective. You have your threshold and other people have theirs. Yours seems to be lower than some other people on here and that’s no issue.

In regards to you point about golf etc then I don’t disagree with your logic at all but then I also temper it with the fact that from a sociological / psychological point of view that once you start making exceptions that’s when things become blurry lined and people start thinking “well if golf is ok then surely playing football is fine” or similar.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by Mr Dee »

GreenBlue wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 4:15 pm
The Cincinnati Kid wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 4:01 pm good points other than marmite.
We will never see eye to eye on that one then :rofl
The Cincinnati Kid wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 4:01 pm Why have they decided the local golf course be closed? I don't even play the game but ..... can I go play golf now please.
:lol:
Marmite and golf . Just two examples that there is so much more to living than just avoiding death.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by GreenBlue »

Sam_Brown wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 5:34 pm In regards to you point about golf etc then I don’t disagree with your logic at all but then I also temper it with the fact that from a sociological / psychological point of view that once you start making exceptions that’s when things become blurry lined and people start thinking “well if golf is ok then surely playing football is fine” or similar.
Very good point.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by Sam_Brown »

New Forester wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 12:21 pm How about the subject of the media focus in the UK about deaths in care homes.

Average age of residents is 87. Average stay was 462 days. So that average stay has reduced. To what? I hope to get to 87. More would be a bonus.

I had two brothers in law in care homes. I wish they had died before they went in. One had a severe stroke and suffered terribly for two years. One had Alzheimer’s, knew no one, and suffered for seven years. For everyone devastated by the loss of a loved one in a care home, more are relieved and dare we say it, delighted with a substantial inheritance which will enrich their lives.

I don’t feel anyone is saying it doesn’t happen. Just that one or two anecdotal tales doesn’t make a rule. I’m sorry for your experiences by the way. Both my grandparents are getting on now and while nowhere near the situation you are talking about every time the phone goes always have it at the back of your mind about is this “the” call or has there been another fall or something. It’s awful and like I said not even remotely close to your situation so I understand why you’d feel so strongly on this but on the flip side not everyone has to or has had to carry the same burdens and might not feel as strongly.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by New Forester »

I take your point.I really think it's great that we can have a sensible discussion about highly sensitive issues here. OK, it's a football forum but as a social media site it's a pleasant refuge from most of the rest. Facebook has some benefits.But I have limited friends to close family only. And most of them write such stuff that I have unfollowed them all so only take a look at their timelines when I'm in the mood. As for Twitter. It sometimes makes me think I am a misanthrope.
Avatar: Harry 'Brusher' Mills (19 March 1840 – 1 July 1905) was a hermit, resident in the New Forest in Hampshire, England, who made his living as a snake-catcher. He became a local celebrity and an attraction for visitors to the New Forest.No relation as far as I know :thumb
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by The Cincinnati Kid »

Don't forget, I'm just here to make the board more interesting!

I just got my Trump money btw. $2400 for Mrs Kid and myself. Kind of daft really as I cant say I need it as I'm fortunate enough to not have lost income. Plus just about all our population on fixed incomes, pensions, disability, social security etc, who's incomes haven't changed, all got it too.
On top of that bit of govt genius I got 2 peeps on unemployment that wouldn't come back to work if the business needed them because they are making more on unemployment than they were when working. (currently 65% of payroll plus $600 a week the Feds kicked in). That's good through July.

I'm not sure ANY govt has asked those doing ok to kick in some more have they? I'd be OK with a temporary 5% increase in income tax or a gallon surcharge on fuel (which is currently under $1.40 per US gallon, really cheap even for here) or anything else really.
Div III. Call it what it is.
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