"Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

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GreenBlue
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by GreenBlue »

Mr D Nuts wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 6:06 am
GreenBlue wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 11:13 pm
Mr D Nuts wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 7:35 pm So we are in this lockdown because this joker said we'd have 500,000 deaths.

I guess ferking the economy wasn't enough.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... RS4lrtNXXQ
Yes, and he would probably have been correct if we hadn't followed such advice.
He has a good record apparently .

2001
Professor Ferguson worked on research that led to the mass culling of hundreds of thousands of farm animals during the 2001 foot and mouth disease epidemic. His work was later challenged in reviews by other academics.

2002
Predicted that between 50 and 50,000 people could die from exposure to BSE (mad cow disease) in beef. He also predicted that number could rise to 150,000 if there was a sheep epidemic as well. In the UK, there have been fewer than 200 deaths from the human form of BSE

2005
Prof Ferguson claimed that up to 200 million people could be killed from bird flu. In an interview with the Guardian, he compared it to the 1918 Spanish flu, adding: “There are six times more people on the planet now so you could scale it up to around 200 million people probably.” Only several hundred people died worldwide.

2009
The Imperial team predicted that swine flu had a case fatality rate of between 0.3 per cent and 1.5 per cent, with his most likely estimate landing at 0.4 per cent. A Government estimate based on his advice was that a reasonable worst-case scenario was the disease would lead to 65,000 UK deaths. Swine flu killed just 457 people in the UK, with the chief medical officer concluding in 2009 that the actual mortality rate was 0.026 per cent.

March 2020
A paper produced by Prof Ferguson’s team predicted that the coronavirus pandemic could lead to 250,000 deaths in the UK unless stringent lockdown measures were implemented. His research is said to have convinced the Government to change direction.

May 5 2020
Professor Ferguson quits the Scientific Advisory Group on Emergencies (Sage) after The Telegraph confronts him over his married lover visiting him at his home, thereby breaking the lockdown rules
Nuts, forgive me if I am wrong but I am guessing you got the above from the Telegraph, a news rag with a definite agenda on this issue. It is so easy to write an article like the one in the Telegraph to make someone look useless. For example, his namesake at Manchester Utd...
Sir Alex Ferguson had a great record as Man Utd apparently.
267 defeats as a Utd's manager.

1989-90

Ferguson had difficult start, ending the year in 15th position, just two points outside the relegation zone. Fans had had enough, and there were plenty calling for his head, as United finished the season in 13th.

1990-91

Ferguson suffered his heaviest defeat at the hands of one his biggest rivals, Liverpool, during that campaign when they were soundly beaten 4-0.

1997-98

Despite leading the Premier League table at the beginning of March, Ferguson’s Utd slipped on the home straight, winning just five of their last 10 matches and losing the title.

2001-02

From October to December, Ferguson won just once in seven league games, losing five of them.

2005-06

Ferguson suffered a humiliating Group Stage exit from the Champions League finishing bottom of the four-team group, winning just one of their six matches.

2006-07

Ferguson’s side were beaten 1-0 by lowly Southend in the League Cup and two months later saw Man Utd’s heaviest defeat to neighbourhood rivals Manchester City since 1955 losing 6-1 at Old Trafford
It is a bl**dy difficult time right now and financially it is a nightmare however, as others have said on this forum, sometimes avoiding watching or reading negative news stories can help. That article is factually correct but he alone didn't make this lockdown happen nor those in most other countries. Yes he was bl**dy idiot and rightly resigned but even if he was not there in the first place the lockdown would still have happened as the majority of doctors and scientists around the world support it.

Stay safe Nuts, this will all be behind us relatively soon.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by New Forester »

When you think about it, the vast majority of fit and healthy people are suffering financially and in other ways to prolong the lives mostly of the elderly and the already sick. And the elderly and already sick are not generally suffering financially or in many other ways. If you are in the former category, one day you may be glad you did.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by GreenBlue »

New Forester wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 6:19 am When you think about it, the vast majority of fit and healthy people are suffering financially and in other ways to prolong the lives mostly of the elderly and the already sick. And the elderly and already sick are not generally suffering financially or in many other ways. If you are in the former category, one day you may be glad you did.
Interesting to see that a poll of 77,000 people suggested that the "vast majority" were not suffering financially.
While coronavirus has united the nation in support of the NHS, it has led to stark division over the financial impact. This high contrast inequity was shown by the 77,000 who voted in my Twitter poll last week; 39% said they'd be worse off, 36% no change, while 25% thought lockdown would improve their finances.

With the economy predicted to shrink by a third this quarter, the number who have hit dire straits sadly needs little explaining. Yet the fact one in four people will see improvement probably does; for many still working, locked in at home, their income is stable, and expenditure vastly cut. It even leaves some starting to save for the first time.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/tips/2020/04/15/
I think it depends on the demographic. It would be interesting to know what line of work the 77,000 were in. I'd imaging the financial sector has been hit hard as have those who are self employed or run their own business.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by Pompey Penguin »

Consider South Korea. Roughly the same population as the UK, rural and urban areas, spread of wealth & privilege levels; maybe a reasonable comparator. About 10k cases, and around 300 deaths. That's what good panademic control looks like; rapid action, public hygiene, massive testing programme, trace contacts and isolate (same as it's been for 100 years). No lockdown, no economic disaster, no mess.

Meanwhile, in the early stages, the UK decided that do nothing, ignore/play down, stiff upper lip, blitz spirit, muddle through was the best approach. We see the results.

Of course, there are other differences, mostly around the problem that the British (and Americans) are generally fat, slothful, have a poor diet and are unhealthy, but that in itself is a public health issue around the problem that disease prevention has not been taken seriously for decades in systems that pay to treat problems, but not to prevent them happening.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by just blue »

Pompey Penguin wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 9:42 am that in itself is a public health issue around the problem that disease prevention has not been taken seriously for decades in systems that pay to treat problems, but not to prevent them happening.
Totally agree.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by Mr Dee »

league one blues wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:32 am
Pompey Penguin wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 9:42 am that in itself is a public health issue around the problem that disease prevention has not been taken seriously for decades in systems that pay to treat problems, but not to prevent them happening.
Totally agree.
They stuck 10p on a can of coke though. Surely that should've solved it 😒
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by GreenBlue »

Pompey Penguin wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 9:42 am Consider South Korea. Roughly the same population as the UK, rural and urban areas, spread of wealth & privilege levels; maybe a reasonable comparator. About 10k cases, and around 300 deaths. That's what good panademic control looks like; rapid action, public hygiene, massive testing programme, trace contacts and isolate (same as it's been for 100 years). No lockdown, no economic disaster, no mess.

Meanwhile, in the early stages, the UK decided that do nothing, ignore/play down, stiff upper lip, blitz spirit, muddle through was the best approach. We see the results.

Of course, there are other differences, mostly around the problem that the British (and Americans) are generally fat, slothful, have a poor diet and are unhealthy, but that in itself is a public health issue around the problem that disease prevention has not been taken seriously for decades in systems that pay to treat problems, but not to prevent them happening.
Excellent post.

Although now, whilst the fight against this virus is still very much ongoing, is not the time to demand answers of the Government, they will certainly have some very difficult questions to answer. Especially why, at a very early stage when the WHO were telling us that testing and tracing was the key to limiting the impact of Covid-19, our Government announced we would do things differently. Also, why did we choose 'blue passports and being British' as a reason for not working with the EU to acquire PPE? Was it a political decision? Yes we were told as we have now left the EU. We will source our own. What a mess we have made of that especially in light of the news about the items from Turkey. Pride and Prejudice over Sense and Sensibility. :evil:
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by Weybridge »

Sadly, race is becoming a factor now. Its disproportionately affecting black and Bangladeshi/Pakistani households, which for want of a better term is down to 'overcrowding'. God, it sounds like a godawful Bernard Manning joke - but its not. The ONS are reporting you are four times more likely to die from Covid-19 if you are black, and twice as likely if you are Bangladeshi than if you live in a 'white' household. And seems heavily linked to the prevalence of BAME employment in service industries where there's a high degree of community interaction.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by Sam_Brown »

Weybridge wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 12:37 pm Sadly, race is becoming a factor now. Its disproportionately affecting black and Bangladeshi/Pakistani households, which for want of a better term is down to 'overcrowding'. God, it sounds like a godawful Bernard Manning joke - but its not. The ONS are reporting you are four times more likely to die from Covid-19 if you are black, and twice as likely if you are Bangladeshi than if you live in a 'white' household. And seems heavily linked to the prevalence of BAME employment in service industries where there's a high degree of community interaction.
Agree with that. My understanding is that in general BAME seem to have a harder time of it. Not surprising this also includes Covid-19 which I would say was a symptom of the larger issues and inequalities affecting BAME people rather than an independent issue in of itself.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by GreenBlue »

Weybridge wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 12:37 pm Sadly, race is becoming a factor now. Its disproportionately affecting black and Bangladeshi/Pakistani households, which for want of a better term is down to 'overcrowding'. God, it sounds like a godawful Bernard Manning joke - but its not. The ONS are reporting you are four times more likely to die from Covid-19 if you are black, and twice as likely if you are Bangladeshi than if you live in a 'white' household. And seems heavily linked to the prevalence of BAME employment in service industries where there's a high degree of community interaction.
Especially a disproportionate number of BAME working in the NHS. It is dreadful to see how badly affected they have been.

Stay safe everybody
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by New Forester »

Surely one factor is how many people brought the virus in to the UK? Did we have a high proportion of travellers coming to or returning here compared with other countries?

Plenty of time in the years ahead to learn lessons. Hope I'm around to hear what they were.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by New Forester »

So our Kid is telling us his lot are raring to get back at it while in the UK this is trending on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23KeepThe ... rend_click
Avatar: Harry 'Brusher' Mills (19 March 1840 – 1 July 1905) was a hermit, resident in the New Forest in Hampshire, England, who made his living as a snake-catcher. He became a local celebrity and an attraction for visitors to the New Forest.No relation as far as I know :thumb
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by Mr Dee »

New Forester wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 3:05 pm So our Kid is telling us his lot are raring to get back at it while in the UK this is trending on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23KeepThe ... rend_click
No doubt many of those calling for extensions will be crying foul later in the year when public services are cut and austerity is ramped up because there's no money in government coffers .
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by GreenBlue »

Our Government will not want our economy to fail but they are correct not to lift the lock down 'IF' science suggest otherwise. The press, especially certain written rags, have been suggesting that things will ease considerably on Monday but this doesn't now look likely. By reporting such, those papers are trying to turn the population against the lock down.

News rags or Scientists? I know who I will listen to.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by The Cincinnati Kid »

The press here, cable news in particular, is absolutely appalling. I gave up FOX about 2yrs into the Obama administration because it got unbearable but I have to say the 2 alternatives, MSNBC and CNN are, if possible, even worse than the TRUMP cheerleading channel since President Dufus came into office which at least has a few dissenting voices on. You'd think you were in 2 different universes if you switch from one to the other. Most of us seem to be stuck in a media loop which reinforces our opinions instead of challenging them. Don't even get me started on Farcebook and the rest which I'm sure started out with good intentions but seem to have been turned into propaganda tools for the various teams.
Its not a simple process to get informed FACTS these days.
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