"Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

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No Shot Sherlock
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by No Shot Sherlock »

The biggest issue (imho) with the lockdown was that it wasn't strict enough and it wasn't introduced soon enough. I suspect, had the government acted sooner and more decisively, that it would have been more effective in reducing transmission/deaths and that it could have been lifted (in stages) sooner than is now the case.

They backed one horse (herd immunity) and then, when they were persuaded to change track, they spent too long dithering over how/who and how much financial support to provide before actually imposing a half-hearted lockdown.

What I am utterly convinced of is that, regardless of how OTT or otherwise the Ferguson/UCL model projections were, without some proactive measures to reduce the 'peak' the NHS would have been overwhelmed. My guess is that government probably believed that would happen anyway (hence the Nightingales and rush to source ventilators). Thankfully it wasn't, but we're now faced with the consequences of those early mistakes in how to best deal with this.

Of course, there are many other strands where you could argue mistakes were made; the lack of preparedness despite previous pandemic planning reviews; the lack of PPE stockpiles and slow reaction to sourcing once the need became critical; the sheer inexplicable delay in ramping up testing; and the frankly ******-poor communication of mixed messages - for once I actually admire the concise and authoritative control and apparent understanding of the issues displayed by Nicola Surgeon.

Let's hope the App doesn't end up being another mistake!

Edited to add: I'm conscious that, like many, my perceptions have evolved as this thing has gone on. Government opinion and action will understandably evolve too as more is learned, but they are paid the big bucks to make the decisions and I can't help feeling there's been a degree of 'bottling' the big ones.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by Sam_Brown »

Mr D Nuts wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 4:50 pm
Sam_Brown wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 1:05 pm Another question to those who feel the lockdown was an overreaction and not worth it... why do you feel the government pushed ahead with the lockdown if you feel the evidence suggests it having no to minimal impact? Incompetence?
Because Neil Ferguson told them to.
Bit of a cop out answer to be honest there I feel.

EDIT- Sorry that might be a bit harsh but I'm gonna stick with it. :lol:
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by Mr Dee »

Sam_Brown wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 5:55 pm
Mr D Nuts wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 4:50 pm
Sam_Brown wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 1:05 pm Another question to those who feel the lockdown was an overreaction and not worth it... why do you feel the government pushed ahead with the lockdown if you feel the evidence suggests it having no to minimal impact? Incompetence?
Because Neil Ferguson told them to.
Bit of a cop out answer to be honest there I feel.

EDIT- Sorry that might be a bit harsh but I'm gonna stick with it. :lol:
Sorry .....Neil Ferguson AND Piers Morgan 😉
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by GreenBlue »

Mr D Nuts wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 4:50 pm
Sam_Brown wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 1:05 pm Another question to those who feel the lockdown was an overreaction and not worth it... why do you feel the government pushed ahead with the lockdown if you feel the evidence suggests it having no to minimal impact? Incompetence?
Because Neil Ferguson told them to.
LOL ... and Alex Ferguson was a crap manager. :) One man did not make that decision.

The true answer is that we will never know how any alternatives would have worked out however if, as the figures Sam posted are suggesting a diminishing curve I am happy with that.
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GreenBlue
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by GreenBlue »

The "is Piers Morgan a prick" argument would be a whole new discussion. LOL
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by PakefieldBlue »

One thing I can't quite work out is why the NHS had so much spare capacity and yet we have the highest number of deaths in Europe. Should more people have been sent to hospital and given the chance to survive?
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by No Shot Sherlock »

According to the BBC, "UK airlines say they have been told the government will bring in a 14-day quarantine for anyone arriving in the UK from any country apart from the Republic of Ireland in response to the coronavirus pandemic. The new restriction is expected to take effect at the end of this month."

So, 7 weeks after the lockdown started, they decide to introduce quarantine for new arrivals into the country, but not for another 3 weeks! FFS, this is precisely the kind of dithering I was alluding to earlier.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by Mr Dee »

No Shot Sherlock wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 11:14 pm According to the BBC, "UK airlines say they have been told the government will bring in a 14-day quarantine for anyone arriving in the UK from any country apart from the Republic of Ireland in response to the coronavirus pandemic. The new restriction is expected to take effect at the end of this month."

So, 7 weeks after the lockdown started, they decide to introduce quarantine for new arrivals into the country, but not for another 3 weeks! FFS, this is precisely the kind of dithering I was alluding to earlier.
Is there any point even bothering now ? This government really have shown themselves to be an indecisive rabble that appear to have made decisions on flawed science ( I think) ,the sway of public opinion or both .
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GreenBlue
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by GreenBlue »

Even this 14 day quarantine idea is flawed. Mr A from country A knows he will be quarantined so takes a flight via Dublin. No quarantine needed?
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by Sam_Brown »

GreenBlue wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 9:21 am Even this 14 day quarantine idea is flawed. Mr A from country A knows he will be quarantined so takes a flight via Dublin. No quarantine needed?

Fair point. In that case maybe a load of people will think “screw this it’s too much effort I just won’t bother going at all”? Same end result I guess.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by GreenBlue »

Also if a UK national goes overseas will they have to quarantine for 14 days on their return?
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by Mr Dee »

PakefieldBlue wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 11:13 pm One thing I can't quite work out is why the NHS had so much spare capacity and yet we have the highest number of deaths in Europe. Should more people have been sent to hospital and given the chance to survive?
Thats a good point especially with all the extra capacity that was built and hardly used if at all .
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by phat_chris »

Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by PakefieldBlue »

phat_chris wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 5:39 pm Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
My point is that surely we did need it - some of those that have died at home and in care homes might that lived if they had been admitted to hospital.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by Sam_Brown »

Don’t forget the majority of recorded deaths ARE from hospitals. It’s only recently they’ve been including care homes deaths. Obviously care homes deaths need looking into and there have obviously been failings there, even if you exclude care homes deaths we still have a very high number deaths. I’m not one to defend this government but do other countries include care home deaths? I seem to recall a fair few round Europe haven’t to date but would love to see some details on this.

Personally I’d also love to know what % of critical care cases end up in death and how that compares to other countries.
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