Bazunu

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Pompey55
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Re: Bazunu

Post by Pompey55 »

Weybridge wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:21 am Its too important a position to rely on just one body. Pretty common to have two keepers vying for the first team slot anyway. I can think of plenty of keepers in our history who have been in shocking form, with nobody able to step up and replace them.

A bad (or injured) keeper is like having no keeper at all.
The problem in my view last year we did not have at any time 2 keepers vying for the position otherwise why was Bass dropped after Wycombe, and I suspect if we get a loan keeper from a higher club the same will apply
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Weybridge
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Re: Bazunu

Post by Weybridge »

Pompey55 wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:24 am
Weybridge wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:21 am Its too important a position to rely on just one body. Pretty common to have two keepers vying for the first team slot anyway. I can think of plenty of keepers in our history who have been in shocking form, with nobody able to step up and replace them.

A bad (or injured) keeper is like having no keeper at all.
The problem in my view last year we did not have at any time 2 keepers vying for the position otherwise why was Bass dropped after Wycombe, and I suspect if we get a loan keeper from a higher club the same will apply
Because Bazunu was busy keeping clean sheets in World Cup qualifiers?
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Re: Bazunu

Post by Blue Walter »

Sam_Brown wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:59 am Down in League 1 you have to use all the tools at your disposal and that includes loans. I don’t think we had any more loans than most clubs in League 1. I do accept the argument about your own players not being developed but I also think you have to play your best team as well. Plus Bass wasn’t exactly setting the world alight while on loan. In the flip side had we had Bass playing for us and he was amazing chances are we lose him to a Championship club and potentially be in the same situation.

If it wasn’t a keeper I don’t think the discussion would be so heated. You only have one playing at a time so it highlights the argument more. Worth remembering that our top scorer was a loan player as well but I don’t think I’ve seen many posts arguing against Hirst playing for us.
I think that particular argument was against the reliance on loan players in general. Hirst is a good case actually because he was the main goal scorer and the focal point in our attack. Now he has gone back we are back to square one needing to find a replacement. Hirst, in particular, was a passenger in the team for a large part of his early time with us. He improved and benefited from a good run in our team, which was a benefit in the end to us but more for his parent club. He is now in a position to claim a place there or there will be clubs that noted he could play and he could draw an offer from that. What would be of benefit to us and make his first half of his loan with us worthwhile is that we signed him permanently. Whether or not that will happen is conjecture.

I think loaning players is beneficial to a club if the player enhances the quality already at that club and ads to it. What I disagree with is the reliance on players being loaned as being the main fabric of the team. I also disagree with becoming a club that does the donkey work for other clubs and bring players on for their benefit, like the Hirst situation could well be. I also disagree with loan players keeping out players that we have produced and need the chance to grow and prosper for our benefit. If the club is ambitious to build a successful team over time, and not buying immediate success, we need to be playing our future players as soon as they are good enough to give something to the team. And not talk about selling them as financial assets as soon as they start delivering.
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Sam_Brown
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Re: Bazunu

Post by Sam_Brown »

I don’t disagree with much of what you say there and there are some very good points you make. Loans are only a short term solution and should be used as part of an overall strategy and not be the primary focus. I would also add that perhaps the only reason Hirst got such a chance was because none of our other strikers were playing well. In this case I think it works well and gave us other options we otherwise wouldn’t have had.

The only thing I’ll add is in regards to not wanting to focus on loans as much so we can concentrate on building our own players. Regardless of if they are loan players or if they are home grown if they had a season last year with us like Hirst or Baz they’d be being picked up by clubs above us in the leagues. Although I guess we’d at least be making money off them in the case.
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PeteM
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Re: Bazunu

Post by PeteM »

Some interesting points in the last few posts and I largely agree with what's been said - it should be used as part of an overall strategy.

One thing I would add is that (with the exception of Bass) I don't think any of our home-grown players really had opportunities denied to them last season that they'd otherwise have had because we had someone on loan. I'm all in favour of us having a great academy and bringing through our own players but it's clearly something that we need to work much harder on as a club at the moment.

If the home-grown players we have are good enough that they deserve the opportunity, they'll get their chance (and I'm sure some of them will get opportunities to impress in pre-season). Otherwise we're probably better off loaning them out to a lower level for them to get regular game time and experience (so they come back to us better prepared for this level of football) - using the system for our benefit.

A pretty significant percentage of the current England squad had loan spells in the early part of their careers and it hasn't done them any harm.
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Re: Bazunu

Post by Blue Walter »

PeteM & Sam, Thank you for your replies.

I agree Hirst had a decent run in the side because of the ineffectiveness of the incumbent strikers already at the club. However, to reach the level he ended the season with he went through a period where he was also ineffective to the point of being a passenger in many of his first games for us. The end result was that he has returned to his club a far better player than when he first came to us resulting in him having a future there or attracting employment elsewhere with clubs that noted his performances with us. This means the main benefactors here are his parent club, the player himself and for us small reward for our endeavours with him, unless we are able to sign him permanently of course. I think Hirst is typical of how the loan system works, in many cases, and it is not the norm that a loan player hits the ground running at his temporary club. In the case of Bazuma it was very different and he spectacularly did hit the ground running and he is probably the best keeper we have had, possibly, ever but this is a rare case. I agree that it is hard to see which home grown players, that are our future, were kept out of the side because of loaned players but it is fair to say Bass was. There were players on the books that were bought into the club by way of transfer that were though. It is also fair to say that several of the current England squad were subject of loans and it has done them no harm at all, but that is looking at it from a players perspective.

I think the loan system is used by clubs for several different reasons. There are clubs competing at a level where they haven't got the financial resources to compete at and need to loan players they can't afford to buy. Others use the loan system to bolster numbers on squad sizes or temporary fixes to cover injuries. I think that most clubs who are ambitious to improve their status will either buy a team for more immediate effect or build a team over time and use the loans system to top up quality within the ranks. We were led to believe that we were building a team that was being transformed into a fast attacking style of play. In my opinion you don't do that by relying on the top performers who are only here on a temporary basis. To build a team that way it is best to keep a group of players that will grow and mature together with players being gradually added along the way, dare I say like Southampton did when they were at this level or Bournemouth for that matter. Having a big overhaul each summer and the prospect of temporary players coming in doesn't look like transition to me but more like marking time. It seems like a competitive side is being assembled for each season to make sure we are at the top end of the table ticking over waiting for a time when a proper assault to be made on promotion. The last few game at Fratton Park were enjoyable last season but can any one say there is evidence of a playing style has been transitioned to?
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Re: Bazunu

Post by Mr Dee »

He's signed for them this afternoon.
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Re: Bazunu

Post by itsaintfunny »

I reserve judgement , the last young keeper signed from City was Angus Gunn and I would have given Forster another contract say 2 years and got rid of McCarthy.
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Re: Bazunu

Post by Blue Walter »

Personally I am surprised he went to Southampton and I don't say that with any tribal bias. He is not guaranteed a starting spot as there are 2 very good keepers there already and, quite possibly, Saints could be in another season of struggle. I would have thought that a player of his quality could have gone somewhere that would have a better chance of honours and less competition for the first team. On the other hand he may well of got to like life down this way.
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Re: Bazunu

Post by RubiconCSL »

Maybe they'll loan him out to a team in a lower league that isn't too far away.
Blue Walter wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:07 pm Personally I am surprised he went to Southampton and I don't say that with any tribal bias. He is not guaranteed a starting spot as there are 2 very good keepers there already and, quite possibly, Saints could be in another season of struggle. I would have thought that a player of his quality could have gone somewhere that would have a better chance of honours and less competition for the first team. On the other hand he may well of got to like life down this way.
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