Brexit

[Locky_McLockface]

In fairness, Mr Corbyn has got an idea, and it's to stay in the Customs Union and the Single Market, in spite of his manifesto pledge to the contrary. Now, whether Leave supporters class that as the Brexit they voted for is for them to decide (potentially at the ballot box).

But, that's all irrelevant all the while Mrs May refuses to call an election, and it seems to me that she's a stubborn moo that won't do so.

In a funny sort of way, I feel like the strength and size of this defeat strengthens the UK's hand. It's a strong signal to Bruxelles that we won't accept being fart-arsed around in the way that we have been, and if they want their €38bn divorce payment, they're gonna have to compromise to get it. And you can be damn sure they want that money.

As a slight aside, I would be interested to know how many MPs would be prepared to accept the current deal, with a legally-binding unilateral opt-out of Backstop added.

[The Cincinnati Kid]

Not sure whos worse....your pile of $@#&^ers or our collection of %^&$s.

Anyhoo….petition / large protest and the most popular of all the rejected options?
Y'all are going back to the ballot box.

[Selsey Bill]

Not sure whos worse....your pile of $@#&^ers or our collection of %^&$s.

Anyhoo….petition / large protest and the most popular of all the rejected options?
Y'all are going back to the ballot box.

Oh no we are not, hopefully! That would totally undermine my understanding of democracy, even though I am a remainer. But, what about the 17.4 million who voted to leave? Most of the ones I know who did so still would vote the same way.

[Milton End]

Not sure whos worse....your pile of $@#&^ers or our collection of %^&$s.

Anyhoo….petition / large protest and the most popular of all the rejected options?
Y'all are going back to the ballot box.

Oh no we are not, hopefully! That would totally undermine my understanding of democracy, even though I am a remainer. But, what about the 17.4 million who voted to leave? Most of the ones I know who did so still would vote the same way.

Several of my friends who voted Leave now say that they would vote Remain in a new ballot. They reason is that the facts and final deal have changed sufficiently for them to reconsider.

I've never understood the argument that it is impossible to change your mind.

In a topic as complex as Brexit, it does not surprise me in the least that opinions have changed and should be tested in a new ballot when the final deal has been agreed.

[Pompey Penguin]

Not sure whos worse....your pile of $@#&^ers or our collection of %^&$s.

Anyhoo….petition / large protest and the most popular of all the rejected options?
Y'all are going back to the ballot box.

Oh no we are not, hopefully! That would totally undermine my understanding of democracy, even though I am a remainer. But, what about the 17.4 million who voted to leave? Most of the ones I know who did so still would vote the same way.

That's a very limited understanding of democracy, although one relentlessly peddled by politicians and the media.

1. Any poll is just a snapshot of public opinion. Otherwise we would only ever have one general election and that party would then be in power forever. It is not sacrosanct. A lot happens in three years to change minds, especially in a process where it is now much clearer as to the meaning and consequences of a "leave" vote. Which leads us to...

2. The 2016 outcome was so close there are oddities involved. If the poll was re-run today, and no-one changed their mind, then the result would be reversed. This is because more old people (who were disproportionately "leave") have died, whilst 15-17 year olds in 2016 (who were disproportionately "remain") would now be entitled to vote.

Any poll where there is no clear outcome only makes the matter worse. We are going to see a similar situation in NI in a few years when the Nationalist electorate outnumbers the Unionists, only that will be much nastier.

[New Forester]

When my grandchildren are my age I predict that there will be a united Ireland and an independent Scotland. Not sure about Wales. And the EU in 70 years? How big and what powers? Or will it have broken up? Then again, will our monarchy still be here? That’s the sad thing about old age, feeling that you have to leave before the end of the match.

[Selsey Bill]

Which leads us to...

2. The 2016 outcome was so close there are oddities involved. If the poll was re-run today, and no-one changed their mind, then the result would be reversed. This is because more old people (who were disproportionately "leave") have died, whilst 15-17 year olds in 2016 (who were disproportionately "remain") would now be entitled to vote.

I've never really thought of it like that - appreciate the enlightenment PP

[itsaintfunny]

Which leads us to...

2. The 2016 outcome was so close there are oddities involved. If the poll was re-run today, and no-one changed their mind, then the result would be reversed. This is because more old people (who were disproportionately "leave") have died, whilst 15-17 year olds in 2016 (who were disproportionately "remain") would now be entitled to vote.

I've never really thought of it like that - appreciate the enlightenment PP

Thing is many younger people wont vote, older people generally do hence the original vote.

[Rocketman]

Actually its not a simple as that. Whereas some of the older people are no longer alive, everyone else has got older and some will have become wiser with age and voted Brexit as their predecessors did. Remember, we survived over 2000 years without the EU and flourished for most of it. Even had an Empire once

[The Cincinnati Kid]

“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”

― Winston S. Churchill

We don't actually have a true democracy.....we have a representative democracy which means like what it sounds....we elect people to represent us and our neighbours and to vote on various issues for us. Now this referendum is a great lesson. Although we all constantly moan about our MP's / Congressmen etc...and they are a bit carp and too party minded....they are at least somewhat informed and halfways intelligent.
Once you let the great unwashed masses vote on truly important stuff its a recipe for disaster. These votes should be left to things like naming ships Boaty McBoatface
I'm not sure of my %s here but would you not say 15% of any given populace are pretty damn stupid and 30% are woefully ill-informed.....well.....they all voted.

Anyhoo….I think y'all will get a second ref and the result will be a resounding STAY at around the 60 / 40 mark

[New Forester]

“ 15% of any given populace are pretty damn stupid “

It’s just a pity that most of our MPs are in that category.

[Number 1 Jasper]

[RubiconCSL]

BREXIT.jpg

[No Shot Sherlock]

Heard an interesting piece on how the mess we've been seen to be making of Brexit has substantially reduced the appetite for similar exits in other EU member nations. Ironically, it may also have increased the demand for the kind of reforms that, if implemented, may well have made it more likely we'd have been content to remain. if we do ever actually leave, I wonder how long it will be before we apply to rejoin (assuming there's still an EU to be a member of)?

PS. According to a guy on Newsnight this evening, there are at least 17 Tories waiting to declare themselves as leadership candidates. No wonder they can't agree a withdrawal deal if there's that many lemmings waiting to follow TM over the cliff just to secure their 5 minutes of fame - w@ankers!

[Locky_McLockface]

The EU won't allow us to rejoin without joining the Euro, and whilst they may start to consider reforms, I think that would be a step too far for them. On that basis, I don't believe we'll be applying to rejoin any time soon.

Whilst the appetite for similar exits from the EU may have diminished, when they start seeing the successes in our economy (glass half full over here!), that may well change over time.

The polls have recently been predicting that Nifel Garage's Brexit Party will win handsomely in today's election, I wonder how the currently elected idiots in the Commons will react to the clear message that it will have sent them if this proves to be the case. Never will I have awaited the outcome of a European election so intently!

Edited to add that I don't include the lovely Penny in the "idiots" statement, having had the pleasure of meeting her a couple of weeks ago.