"Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

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The Cincinnati Kid
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by The Cincinnati Kid »

Sam_Brown wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 8:06 pm

Just to add on to my previous post.

I appreciate you mentioned multiple times how death per million is a more accurate figure that gross deaths. I agree but consider the following data. Does the fact the US deaths per million is increasing change your opinion on how well the US has dealt with the outbreak and does the below make you less likely or more likely to consider a lock down being important?

US Deaths Per Million:

20th April: 122 deaths per million
1st May: 190 deaths per million
20th May: 277 deaths per million

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/tota ... ID_WRL+USA
I don't get your premise. Surely every country has increasing numbers? My point in posting the 10 or so countries with the highest caseload per million was to attempt to find a common thread (why would usa and Western Europe be worse than anywhere else?)... which I suggest (I don't know) is the named countries are better at counting and testing than say Russia / India / Venezuela / China. I'm sure there are other factors....pop density, more public transport / a more travelled populace etc etc
I don't particularly think the x per million number is that relevant. The number which no-one really has is ...how many peeps had the virus vs died....and we don't know that anywhere because we don't test people that aren't sick....which from my reading of various dribs and drabs from the press...... is a very large number ie peeps that had the virus and never had symptoms.
I have said its a known science FACT that the dose of any particular virus / germ / bacteria that we all get in our course of everyday life is a critical factor. We all come into contact with small doses of something every day. (did you know there is apparently poo on youe cellphone?...uuurggh) If someone with flu sneezes in yer face, yer getting the flu. If they sneeze in the air and you walk by 5 minutes later, maybe you get a few molecules, and your body probably fights it off and you never knew you had it.
The FACTS of who gets sick with corona suggest this is the case....those that are unable to avoid high or constant dose from an infected person....care homes / prisons / cruise ships / workplaces with lots of people close together...etc etc. So, given this, I suggest we are inhibiting herd immunity, inhibiting the natural order of things with overly aggressive shutdowns / lockdowns.
That's not to say they are useless. On the contrary, they have value in insuring our med systems don't get overloaded and, as Nuts said earlier...that was the premise on which lockdowns / shutdowns were sold to the populace. But, imo, they have morphed into a save every life at all costs routine. Though that has relaxed globally now.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by Sam_Brown »

I think I preferred it when you were on the wind up (maybe that's an unfair description) as I'm finding it hard to disagree with most of that post :rofl. I think you're right on most of that.

One thing worth considering is that it's easy to deal with absolutes like "lockdown" vs "no lockdown" and it's easy to take a position on that basis but when you start looking at the grey areas even when you have people who believe we should relax the lockdown what each person deems as a suitable relaxation is different. Even myself I see people moaning about schools going back and I don't have a massive issue with that but I know a lot of people do. Where as I see some things people think is fine and think they are idiots. I think the thing I'm noticing recently is a lack of cohesion between what the government is saying and what local authorities \ business are doing.

For example the local country parks have been absolutely rammed the last week or so up here but none of the carparks are open so everyone is parking on the side of country lanes and climbing over fences etc which probably increases the risk of transmission. Although seeing as how much money they are raking in maybe it's not an accident...

https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/busi ... rk-2856094
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by uspompeyfan »

Can't agree more Cinci......

Humans are by their nature, are herd animals who need interaction. After the various lock-downs, it was only a matter of time before people wanted to meet up in public again. Yes, a spike will probably reoccur, but I hope drastic measures don't return. That said, I shuddered at some of the 'weekend pool parties' that were so overcrowded, but maybe that is part of the nature of repetitive behavior being the norm. Going out, being sensible and responsible and washing hands should be enough....but then, once let out of the gate, all common sense disappears with some.....
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

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uspompeyfan wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 7:04 pm Can't agree more Cinci......

Humans are by their nature, are herd animals who need interaction. After the various lock-downs, it was only a matter of time before people wanted to meet up in public again. Yes, a spike will probably reoccur, but I hope drastic measures don't return. That said, I shuddered at some of the 'weekend pool parties' that were so overcrowded, but maybe that is part of the nature of repetitive behavior being the norm. Going out, being sensible and responsible and washing hands should be enough....but then, once let out of the gate, all common sense disappears with some.....
Indeed it does. But don't let that get you down. Remember its a huge country 350 million + and it aint hard for the press to go find an overcrowded bar, a pool party and some other assorted Neanderthals. I've mentioned before that I get around. This last week alone, Florida, Baltimore and somewhere in PA . Most peeps taking in the info and doing the right thing. ffs I cut my own freaking hair yesterday even though the barber did just open back up.
Actually, it came out quite good!
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by SouthernPies »

CK... might be a bit chest pumping,

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health ... 9-mistakes

Don't get me wrong NZ has areas where its economy is in real trouble due to the total cessation of Tourism, rest of the country has returned to the new norm, no new cases in 12 days, only one active. We have a four level approach and are currently at Level 2 with going down to Level 1 next week. Community sport is training and first competitive games are next week. Professional Sport will be able to played without crowds, though I see some sort of relaxation.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

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SouthernPies wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:28 pm CK... might be a bit chest pumping,

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health ... 9-mistakes

Don't get me wrong NZ has areas where its economy is in real trouble due to the total cessation of Tourism, rest of the country has returned to the new norm, no new cases in 12 days, only one active. We have a four level approach and are currently at Level 2 with going down to Level 1 next week. Community sport is training and first competitive games are next week. Professional Sport will be able to played without crowds, though I see some sort of relaxation.
Yeah, its a fascinating comparison if you can take the tragedy out of it. It looks like NZ has done a tip top job versus most of the world but I guess we just don't know as yet , what the repercussions are of Sweden possibly having a large % of the populace perhaps exposed and has built herd immunity whereas NZ might still be incredibly vulnerable for some time. Anyhow....word of caution....I heard ya'll have a young pretty female running the show over there and she just has to smile a bit and y'all do what she says. She's already taken yer guns....watch yer back! :)
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by GreenBlue »

The Cincinnati Kid wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:52 pm Anyhow....word of caution....I heard ya'll have a young pretty female running the show over there and she just has to smile a bit and y'all do what she says. She's already taken yer guns....watch yer back! :)
Ardern or the maniacal orange man. I know who I would rather have in control of my country.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

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GreenBlue wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:08 pm
The Cincinnati Kid wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:52 pm Anyhow....word of caution....I heard ya'll have a young pretty female running the show over there and she just has to smile a bit and y'all do what she says. She's already taken yer guns....watch yer back! :)
Ardern or the maniacal orange man. I know who I would rather have in control of my country.
yeah, true but Trumptard is a short term aberration and he really doesn't run anything but his mouth.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by GreenBlue »

The Cincinnati Kid wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:17 pm yeah, true but Trumptard is a short term aberration and he really doesn't run anything but his mouth.
But his foul mouth wins the popular support of Americans and normalises obnoxiousness in society. Short term but long term damage.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

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GreenBlue wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:27 pm
The Cincinnati Kid wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:17 pm yeah, true but Trumptard is a short term aberration and he really doesn't run anything but his mouth.
But his foul mouth wins the popular support of Americans and normalises obnoxiousness in society. Short term but long term damage.
No it doesn't. It normalizes it in the press but not in real life
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by uspompeyfan »

GreenBlue wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:27 pm
The Cincinnati Kid wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:17 pm yeah, true but Trumptard is a short term aberration and he really doesn't run anything but his mouth.
But his foul mouth wins the popular support of Americans and normalises obnoxiousness in society. Short term but long term damage.
Trump has so many people / media against him, pushing a fake Russia document to get a FISA warrant to spy on his election team, pre-handover team and more - along with a pathetic attempt to oust him with no factual evidence to back it up. While not the most eloquent, he is in no way, the racist he is made out to be and furthermore, has done more to help minorities than any Dimocrat in power.

In return, he is falsely villified by foreign media, especially in Britain, where the lies are perpetuated and many don't look to see the truth of what he achieved.

At the outbreak of the Pandemic, the economy was booming and he was in almost no danger of losing the election. The stock market, despite dropping down to below the level he started at when the Pandemic hit, is almost 80% of the way back at over 26K because through everything, business understands that he will get the country back better than Biden and his leftist views and strategies.

The latest fiasco in the cities is not his fault either - it was a bad cop who deserves to go down for not following policies. The left and ANTIFA have highjacked the tragedy for political benefit and racial tension is always a cheap option for the left. By the way, the kid that was killed was not as innocent as media makes out - he was high on fentinyl (spelling?) and had multiple arrests for armed robbery and also pointing a gun at the belly of a pregnant woman (not in this instance). He should not have been killed, but there are bad cops out there and it should never be deemed the rule. The Worldwide response has taken this death out of all proportion and the left are using it for other aims.

Yes, I am a Trump supporter and also an Arizona State Delegate for the Republican Party, so a bit biased, but the UK bnever seems to hear what Trump has done well.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by Sam_Brown »

The stock market is not the economy no matter how much Wall Street like to conflate the two.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by GreenBlue »

uspompeyfan wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:07 am While not the most eloquent, he is in no way, the racist he is made out to be ...
So not being quite as big a racist as he is made out to be is a good thing? I'd argue that at best he is a xenophobe with racist tendencies. In no way am I going to say that all his supporters are racist because they are not, but he does appeal to overtly racist people. Why is this?
uspompeyfan wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:07 am ....has done more to help minorities than any Dimocrat in power.
Says Donald Trump
uspompeyfan wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:07 am Biden and his leftist views and strategies.
In very few other countries would Biden be considered a leftist but alongside Trump and his supporters the vast majority of the World's population would look leftist. By the way, in my opinion, Biden is not a particularly great man either.
uspompeyfan wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:07 am The latest fiasco in the cities is not his fault either - it was a bad cop who deserves to go down for not following policies. The left and ANTIFA have highjacked the tragedy for political benefit and racial tension is always a cheap option for the left. By the way, the kid that was killed was not as innocent as media makes out - he was high on fentinyl (spelling?) and had multiple arrests for armed robbery and also pointing a gun at the belly of a pregnant woman (not in this instance). He should not have been killed, but there are bad cops out there and it should never be deemed the rule.
I don't know a huge deal about George Floyd as a person but I do know about this one off situation. Whether your aspersions about him not being as innocent as he is made out to be are all factually correct, they are irrelevant to what happened. You do rightly make it clear that he should not have been killed but I am surprised you raised those points when you did as it almost appeared that you were indirectly justifying what happened.
uspompeyfan wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:07 am The Worldwide response has taken this death out of all proportion and the left are using it for other aims.
Unfortunately this is not a one off and the vast majority of the demonstrators believe enough is enough. It has captured the imagination of those in the USA and those around the world and rather than 'hijacking' the tragedy, the majority are using it to enforce the fact that people of all races should be treated equally. A good thing I would argue.
uspompeyfan wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:07 am Yes, I am a Trump supporter and also an Arizona State Delegate for the Republican Party, so a bit biased, but the UK bnever seems to hear what Trump has done well.
There is a hint of bias in some of your comments ;-) as there will be in everyone else's, and that is perfectly normal. I am certainly biased in my opinions of the guy because he has said an awful lot of things that I don't like. Most of what I see and hear of Trump is gained directly from his Twitter feed or from video of him talking (not just snippets nor other people's opinions on what he has said)
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by The Cincinnati Kid »

A slightly interesting insight on Trumpy Wumpy, who, if it was possible for the man to keep his mouth shut, stay off twitterland and follow advice once in a while, would be reelected in a landslide.
Young Sgt. Kid spends his day job as a journalist in Washington DC. For the record he has worked for multiple organizations none of which are overtly left or right but all of which lean in one direction or the other. I should say he's very well connected judging by the number of photos I get (and the number of autographed books I have). Anyhoo, he will tell you that the vast majority of Republican Congress and Senators will tell you "off the record" that they cant stand the man and he is in FACT a drooling, egotistical, uneducated, slackjawed idiot that borders on being damn dangerous BUT with very few exceptions, they wont go on the record with such comments for 2 primary reasons, ie Trump has indeed got a bunch of stuff done that suits Republican politics and if they run their mouths their re-election will be in jeopardy.

As for the press in general, its interesting to note that 10 days ago, the deadly pandemic was 24/7 coverage and now there is not a mention of the worst thing ever as we've moved on to police brutality.
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Re: "Tis better to die on our feet than live on our knees

Post by Weybridge »

Have to agree with GreenBlue here. While I accept there is media bias against Trump, its hardly libel or slander. The man is only rebuked for his own words or actions (which he then compounds by public denials, despite evidence to the contrary). He stokes division because it riles up his base and campaigning is where he is stronger, instead of actual governance.

Aside from his defensive and self-entitled stance, I think what infuriates people on a professional level is his refusal to talk, expand upon or even justify policy. Even if he just stood there and said 'I'm not qualified to answer that in detail so I'll defer to my Secretary of X, who will take your questions', he'd get a lot more respect. But he has the ego the size of Jupiter which won't allow him to. How many times have we heard 'nobody knows more about this subject than me' before getting angry when someone dares raise a question about it. Its that transparent lying which raises the media's ire - and rightly so. Lie to the press, and you lie to the people. That's unforgiveable and invites opposition. There's a reason the press is called the Fourth Estate - its to keep the first three in check. And it doesn't help his case by levying juvenile nicknames all the time.

Like it or not, Trump is a sociopathic liar, who borders on fascist rhetoric. How the Republican Party have not stood up and tossed him on his ear by now, eludes me. America deserves better, right or left.
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