European Super League

[Sam_Brown]

The FA say the UK clubs concerned will/could be removed from the Premier league...

Oh. So this isn't those teams leaving the PL then? They want to do the SL during the week and PL at the weekend is that right? Way some were going on Twitter they make it sound like the teams were leaving the PL for this SL.

The FA have said they would want to remove the six from the Prem but the six have said they want to play in both...Saturday Prem and Tues ESL!!!

Sounds like cutting off your nose to spite your face here. Seeing as it's in the hands of the FA why would they have an issue with the teams not playing in the CL and playing in the ESL instead? I'm sure there are good reasons but the media seem to be painting it as the 6 Prem teams looking to leave the PL which doesn't seem to be the case.

[Pompey Penguin]

I would have no issue with a separate league taking over from the CL; UEFA have no moral grounds to stand on there.

My problem is that the founding 12 would be members of that league in perpetuity, that is they wouldn't be required to qualify via the PL each season, and hence their income would be guaranteed (poor darlings have suffered through covid). A few other teams might be able to join for a season, but that seems just window dressing to cover the main aim; franchise football for the billionaires.

As a consequence, they would not be under pressure in the PL, and would be able to play B teams without worries, saving their best players for the ESL. Even if a reserve team got relegated it wouldn't matter as they would still be in the leagure that counted.

[Milton End]

The FA say the UK clubs concerned will/could be removed from the Premier league...

Oh. So this isn't those teams leaving the PL then? They want to do the SL during the week and PL at the weekend is that right? Way some were going on Twitter they make it sound like the teams were leaving the PL for this SL.

The FA have said they would want to remove the six from the Prem but the six have said they want to play in both...Saturday Prem and Tues ESL!!!

Sounds like cutting off your nose to spite your face here. Seeing as it's in the hands of the FA why would they have an issue with the teams not playing in the CL and playing in the ESL instead? I'm sure there are good reasons but the media seem to be painting it as the 6 Prem teams looking to leave the PL which doesn't seem to be the case.

The six UK 'founder members' want to stay in the Premier League for weekends at the same time as playing the European Super League matches in mid week. Basically, they want to have their cake and eat it. There are two problems with this arrangement.

First, the sheer resources to work both sets of games will mean that the weekend teams will not be to be the same teams as those during the week. And which league will get the best players as PP points out above?

Second, the many extra fixtures in the European Super League will mean that other English and Scottish national competitions will have to be sacrificed. This won't matter for the founding clubs because they are on a guaranteed gravy train contract for 23 years. But for many clubs, the earnings from competitions - for example the League Cup - will disappear.

More fundamentally, it is only a matter of time before the European Super League then becomes like the NFL in America - a complete closed shop with no relegation - and the complete destruction of the current pyramid of competition and promotion throughout football.

Thus it is completely misleading for the founder members to say that they want to stay in the Premier League long term: they won't need it to make decent profits. They will simply withdraw from the PL once the lucrative television contracts have been agreed and their current home supporters have become exhausted. They will be replaced by 'supporters' from Shanghai, Mumbai and Abu Dhabi, etc. And guess where some, but not all, Manchester United 'home games' will be played in five years time?

[Sam_Brown]

I would have no issue with a separate league taking over from the CL; UEFA have no moral grounds to stand on there.

My problem is that the founding 12 would be members of that league in perpetuity, that is they wouldn't be required to qualify via the PL each season, and hence their income would be guaranteed (poor darlings have suffered through covid). A few other teams might be able to join for a season, but that seems just window dressing to cover the main aim; franchise football for the billionaires.

As a consequence, they would not be under pressure in the PL, and would be able to play B teams without worries, saving their best players for the ESL. Even if a reserve team got relegated it wouldn't matter as they would still be in the leagure that counted.

Some good points there I hadn't considered cheers. I guess the teams would still like to win the PL but yeah there would be no pressure to finish in the "top 4" and anyone not in contention would consider the PL an afterthought. Kinda like how teams take the league cup less seriously from the FA cup. On the flip side assuming the CL still goes ahead then there would be "lesser" teams getting involved in that (assume top 4 are still the top 4 so CL spots go to 5th - 8th for example) and the extra money that would bring them as well but imagine it would pale in comparison to the money the ESL would make the big boys.

I'm not old enough to know this and it's asked with no subtext at all I promise. When the CL became a thing did people worry then about it devaluing the domestic leagues and cups? I'm just curious how this ESL compares to other ventures in the past that have come to pass.

[Sam_Brown]

The FA say the UK clubs concerned will/could be removed from the Premier league...

Oh. So this isn't those teams leaving the PL then? They want to do the SL during the week and PL at the weekend is that right? Way some were going on Twitter they make it sound like the teams were leaving the PL for this SL.

The FA have said they would want to remove the six from the Prem but the six have said they want to play in both...Saturday Prem and Tues ESL!!!

Sounds like cutting off your nose to spite your face here. Seeing as it's in the hands of the FA why would they have an issue with the teams not playing in the CL and playing in the ESL instead? I'm sure there are good reasons but the media seem to be painting it as the 6 Prem teams looking to leave the PL which doesn't seem to be the case.

The six UK 'founder members' want to stay in the Premier League for weekends at the same time as playing the European Super League matches in mid week. Basically, they want to have their cake and eat it. There are two problems with this arrangement.

First, the sheer resources to work both sets of games will mean that the weekend teams will not be to be the same teams as those during the week. And which league will get the best players as PP points out above?

Second, the many extra fixtures in the European Super League will mean that other English and Scottish national competitions will have to be sacrificed. This won't matter for the founding clubs because they are on a guaranteed gravy train contract for 23 years. But for many clubs, the earnings from competitions - for example the League Cup - will disappear.

More fundamentally, it is only a matter of time before the European Super League then becomes like the NFL in America - a complete closed shop with no relegation - and the complete destruction of the current pyramid of competition and promotion throughout football.

Thus it is completely misleading for the founder members to say that they want to stay in the Premier League long term: they won't need it to make decent profits. They will simply withdraw from the PL once the lucrative television contracts have been agreed and their current home supporters have become exhausted. They will be replaced by 'supporters' from Shanghai, Mumbai and Abu Dhabi, etc. And guess where some, but not all, Manchester United 'home games' will be played in five years time?

Great post. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

[New Forester]

The ESL proposal has made everyone more aware of who controls our major clubs and what their interests are. Attention should be focussed now on how it should be stopped. It should be easier than bringing down the Berlin Wall and the end of the Soviet Union. I’ll be happy to play my part.

[Pompey Penguin]

I'm not old enough to know this and it's asked with no subtext at all I promise. When the CL became a thing did people worry then about it devaluing the domestic leagues and cups? I'm just curious how this ESL compares to other ventures in the past that have come to pass.

I am old enough, but that also means the memory isn't what it once was!

As I recall, the main objection was that the CL would not require the teams to win either their national championship or be the European Cup holders. Therefore the competition would be devalued. There were also objections even then about the group stage just being a money-makign exercise.

I don't think people realised how massively successful in terms of TV revenue the new competition would be, and how clubs could leverage that to dominate national leagues. All over Europe we see countries with one team that gets to the CL every year, and gets loads of money even if knocked out in qualifying, and this allows them to outspend local rivals to establish a viscious circle of income and success.

As far as I remember, no-one predicted that this success and money-making would lead to the takover of clubs by hedgefund managers and oppressive regimes looking for easy profits and sportswashing opportunities respectively. This left other clubs struggling to keep up, and the result was Barcelona and Real Madrid each about £1 billion in debt and willing to do anything for income.

Some other stuff also happened, probably.

[New Forester]

European Super League: Manchester City withdraw and Chelsea prepare to follow.

Best news today.

[GreenBlue]

European Super League: Manchester City withdraw and Chelsea prepare to follow.

Best news today.

[Sam_Brown]

I'm not old enough to know this and it's asked with no subtext at all I promise. When the CL became a thing did people worry then about it devaluing the domestic leagues and cups? I'm just curious how this ESL compares to other ventures in the past that have come to pass.

I am old enough, but that also means the memory isn't what it once was!

As I recall, the main objection was that the CL would not require the teams to win either their national championship or be the European Cup holders. Therefore the competition would be devalued. There were also objections even then about the group stage just being a money-makign exercise.

I don't think people realised how massively successful in terms of TV revenue the new competition would be, and how clubs could leverage that to dominate national leagues. All over Europe we see countries with one team that gets to the CL every year, and gets loads of money even if knocked out in qualifying, and this allows them to outspend local rivals to establish a viscious circle of income and success.

As far as I remember, no-one predicted that this success and money-making would lead to the takover of clubs by hedgefund managers and oppressive regimes looking for easy profits and sportswashing opportunities respectively. This left other clubs struggling to keep up, and the result was Barcelona and Real Madrid each about £1 billion in debt and willing to do anything for income.

Some other stuff also happened, probably.

Thank you it's great to see posts like this on here. Appreciate it.

[Milton End]

European Super League: Manchester City withdraw and Chelsea prepare to follow.

Best news today.

Agree: problems also with two Spanish sides are being reported.

It looks like the ESL is dead in the water. Classic example of how to completely misunderstand the fundamental nature of European football. The Madrid President's claim that the new ESL would 'save football' was plainly both inept and stupid.

But it still leaves reform of the European Champions League to be negotiated. The greedy owners can still clash with EUFA.....but Real Madrid, ManU and Liverpool now have a much weaker negotiating hand.

[New Forester]

Thoughts?

It won't happen.

He was right.

[Pompey Penguin]

Things I don't say very often, but I think we have Boris Johnson to thank for this. The money-makers don't care what "legacy fans" or pundits say, but Johnson coming out quickly and strongly to promise punitive legislation had an impact as it threatened their income potential.

Now we have the big owners on the back foot, this is the time to press ahead with the government review into football governance and follow it up with real measures to control ownership. Otherwise these people will just try their luck again in a couple of years.

[Weybridge]

So much of this was ill-thought out, and with a fatal misunderstanding of how football 'works'.

If you're pitching every game in the ESL as epic in nature, legendary battles between super-giants of the game... what about the games later in the season where the teams sitting in 11th and 12th have zero chance of success, but still have a fair shot at glory in domestic competitions. If you were manager, where would you play the kids and the squad players?

I understood the desperation of the Spanish teams who are in deep, almost irrecoverable debt. Similarly with the Italians, who are also staring at too much red ink on their balance sheets. It would have been a way out. But the UK teams, it was just sheer greed.

I wasn't surprised at Man City being the first to crack. If there's one thing Sheikh Mansour craves more than the cash, its good PR.

[Locky_McLockface]

European Super League: Manchester City withdraw and Chelsea prepare to follow.

Best news today.