New England Kit

[eltorrro]

I really do worry about the UK!!
Is there anybody on this board that is Nationalistic toward their country, whether country of birth or adopted?
Why don't you want the St. George cross on our shirts? It's the national flag of England football team FFS!! and in my view should be displayed whenever and wherever England football is displayed.
OK, somebody is going to respond about me leaving UK and living abroad. Yes I did, but I ALWAYS wear the England shirt when we play and ALWAYS when I watch v Spain at a bar.
I might be old school but even though I live in a foreign country I am still English through and through and would willingly lay my life on the line for my country (even though it has been taken over by immigrants!!)

Rant over!

Says the guy living as an immigrant in Spain .

Sorry couldn’t help myself.

Oh, do keep up Sam...we've already addressed that scenario if you read the earlier threads.

[GreenBlue]

Aren't we all actually immigrants on these Isles?

[Pompey55]

Aren't we all actually immigrants on these Isles?

Pretty much so apart from maybe a few outposts in the West country which were less invaded but this was exactly my point we are an integrated society hence the description White Anglo Saxon
used to describe many

[GreenBlue]

Aren't we all actually immigrants on these Isles?

Pretty much so apart from maybe a few outposts in the West country which were less invaded but this was exactly my point we are an integrated society hence the description White Anglo Saxon
used to describe many

I think you'll find that even those in the deepest darkest recesses of our wonderful country, even the parts that were never invaded, are still immigrants to these isles.

My view on the cross, I am warming to it. As some posters have suggested, it is a new feature rather than one that has been changed. For me it is just decoration incorporating the shape of the St George cross. (By the way, St George certainly was not from these lands).

We Pompey fans are a fiery lot. Imagine if they tried to change the Pompey badge (again) or even just change the colour to red. Remember the uproar over the Spinnaker LOL

I personally don't think the cross is that important. It is in no way eroding my passion for my country. For me, my country is the land, the people, the decency and yes, the history (the vast vast majority of which I am very proud but I don't have time to name all the good bits).I have been accused (so too strong a word)of hating my country. I fly the St George flag when England are in any tournament, men's and women's, I fly the union flag during the Olympics and I used to fly the EU flag during the Ryder cup but... well that is another discussion)

The argument that I hate England or Britain is a weak one as yes, I do sometimes mention the darker side of our history (all countries have dark sides, many are much darker than our own, even or especially the Vatican) but I also talk about the good things but people just remember the bad. If somebody asked me which letters of the alphabet are starting letters for countries of the world, I would probably answer that X and W are the only letters that don't. Easier to do than name all those that do, but it bears no relevance to a lack of understanding of the rest.

I have never said I hate my country, and I never will. Do I like the current government? No. Do I like the amount of rain we have had this year? No. Do I like everything about it? No. But there are far more things I do like about it. There is one thing that for me, would make the country and the world a much better place, but I I won't say what it is because it could upset a lot of people and I believe everyone has the right to believe in anything they wish. Oops.

[StMonkton]

Some comments about nationalism in general.

In the abstract, nationalism is a dangerous philosophy in my book. The twentieth century was littered with wars with roots in such thinking.

The ‘my country right or wrong” concept has always struck me as a poor excuse for rational decision making. In my view it is on a par with the claim ‘my holy book tells me this is wrong ‘ as an abdication of taking responsibilty .

The fact that some ancient mystic may have written this centuries ago or that you happened to be born in a particular place can’t escape the fact that countries do bad things and religions take positions on moral issues that are abhorrent to some.


To illustrate, what would you think if you were living in Russia now?



On the issue of ‘white anglo saxon’ , many English people have Scandinavian, French ,Scots or Irish ancestry. Let alone those whose forebears came in the twentieth century.

As to the spark of this strand, I have no idea what the designers thought they were doing. If they were trying to make some sort of statement then it needed to be clearer and not hidden at the back.

[Blue Walter]

I would assume most people on this site will want England to win tonight. Personally I hope England, I won't say 'we' as some might find that offensive, win and win well. I then hope England go on and win the Euros, and even another World Cup in my lifetime. I am not ashamed to say that I am English and proud to be British, which again some might find offensive. The thing is isn't it being 'nationalistic' celebrating a goal when they score? Isn't it being a tad nationalistic wanting your international team to win? All those going to Wembley tonight are going to watch two 'nations' play in a competitive game of football (I know its a friendly) hoping to beat each other. Many will be carrying flags to show which nation they support. Is that not being nationalistic?

[Sam_Brown]

Very good BW. I think it boils down to modern ways of thinking where everything is black and white and you’re either “with us or against us”. Truth is the world isn’t like that.

The media would have you feel you’re either nationalistic or a traitor. That you’re either a remainer or a brexiteer that either you are an anti semite Hamas lover for criticising Israel or a genocide enabling monster for claiming Israel has the right to defend herself after October. I hate it. Nuanced discussion is dead and people are so quick to label other people as “the other side” as it’s an easy way to dismiss anything they say. It’s why I like this site so much. Such a varied range of opinions and generally discussions are respectful and measured and it rarely gets personal. Long may that continue.

[StMonkton]

Very good BW. I think it boils down to modern ways of thinking where everything is black and white and you’re either “with us or against us”. Truth is the world isn’t like that.

The media would have you feel you’re either nationalistic or a traitor. That you’re either a remainer or a brexiteer that either you are an anti semite Hamas lover for criticising Israel or a genocide enabling monster for claiming Israel has the right to defend herself after October. I hate it. Nuanced discussion is dead and people are so quick to label other people as “the other side” as it’s an easy way to dismiss anything they say. It’s why I like this site so much. Such a varied range of opinions and generally discussions are respectful and measured and it rarely gets personal. Long may that continue.

Very well put Sam.


No need to get into a semantic argument but I’ll just say that supporting your national football team is not what I call nationalism.

We’ve missed you Walter. Your veiled sarcasm is as irritating as ever but you argue your corner sincerely.

[Blue Walter]

Very good BW. I think it boils down to modern ways of thinking where everything is black and white and you’re either “with us or against us”. Truth is the world isn’t like that.

The media would have you feel you’re either nationalistic or a traitor. That you’re either a remainer or a brexiteer that either you are an anti semite Hamas lover for criticising Israel or a genocide enabling monster for claiming Israel has the right to defend herself after October. I hate it. Nuanced discussion is dead and people are so quick to label other people as “the other side” as it’s an easy way to dismiss anything they say. It’s why I like this site so much. Such a varied range of opinions and generally discussions are respectful and measured and it rarely gets personal. Long may that continue.

I disagree with you that the modern perception is boiled down to 'black or white' in its outlook. The media are responsible for a lot of these perceptions by trying to influence its readership which perception to follow. Not only the media, of course, various bodies or groups also wish to infiltrate and persuade Jo Public to follow their ideology. Religious groups also have a lot to answer for as well. This is nothing new of course because when I was at school we were taught the the 'white man' was the main man. The white British man taught the world how to behave. To be proud of the Empire, the Royal family were righteous, Christianity was the only real religion and, of course know your 'station' in life and respect your betters. Mercifully it was also a country that had developed enough to be able to question those perceptions without having to kill and maim its own people.

Today it is so much different with television in the vanguard of perceptive persuasion, and the press of course. Television is trying to persuade us that the minorities of this country are in fact the righteous ones and are deemed the majority. Adverts would have you believe that the majority of relationships in this country are of mixed race, nothing wrong with mixed race relationship its just that they make up less than one percent of the population. The BAME community is well and truly over represented as is the gay community. Jobs are being given out on a basis of the the person's gender or ethnicity in a over representation of the population instead of ability or talent. British history is portrayed as one of evil. The list goes on, as I am as well, so I will leave it there but I absolutely don't agree anything is black or white these days, just like being male or female at birth.

[Blue Walter]

Very good BW. I think it boils down to modern ways of thinking where everything is black and white and you’re either “with us or against us”. Truth is the world isn’t like that.

The media would have you feel you’re either nationalistic or a traitor. That you’re either a remainer or a brexiteer that either you are an anti semite Hamas lover for criticising Israel or a genocide enabling monster for claiming Israel has the right to defend herself after October. I hate it. Nuanced discussion is dead and people are so quick to label other people as “the other side” as it’s an easy way to dismiss anything they say. It’s why I like this site so much. Such a varied range of opinions and generally discussions are respectful and measured and it rarely gets personal. Long may that continue.

Very well put Sam.


No need to get into a semantic argument but I’ll just say that supporting your national football team is not what I call nationalism.

We’ve missed you Walter. Your veiled sarcasm is as irritating as ever but you argue your corner sincerely.

Thank you.......I think! The good news for you is I wouldn't think I was actually back. If you want your national team to win and you are pleased they have won, against a foreign team, what is that if it is not being nationalistic? I do agree there is good and bad nationalism depending on what drives it.

[Sam_Brown]

Yeah exactly. I think a good analogy is our rivalry with Southampton. It’s good and passionate and makes for a great game of football but the bricks being thrown at buses and people being assaulted and people being arrested is too far. Oh and horses getting their knobs cut off .

[Blue Walter]

Aren't we all actually immigrants on these Isles?

Pretty much so apart from maybe a few outposts in the West country which were less invaded but this was exactly my point we are an integrated society hence the description White Anglo Saxon
used to describe many

I think you'll find that even those in the deepest darkest recesses of our wonderful country, even the parts that were never invaded, are still immigrants to these isles.

My view on the cross, I am warming to it. As some posters have suggested, it is a new feature rather than one that has been changed. For me it is just decoration incorporating the shape of the St George cross. (By the way, St George certainly was not from these lands).

We Pompey fans are a fiery lot. Imagine if they tried to change the Pompey badge (again) or even just change the colour to red. Remember the uproar over the Spinnaker LOL

I personally don't think the cross is that important. It is in no way eroding my passion for my country. For me, my country is the land, the people, the decency and yes, the history (the vast vast majority of which I am very proud but I don't have time to name all the good bits).I have been accused (so too strong a word)of hating my country. I fly the St George flag when England are in any tournament, men's and women's, I fly the union flag during the Olympics and I used to fly the EU flag during the Ryder cup but... well that is another discussion)

The argument that I hate England or Britain is a weak one as yes, I do sometimes mention the darker side of our history (all countries have dark sides, many are much darker than our own, even or especially the Vatican) but I also talk about the good things but people just remember the bad. If somebody asked me which letters of the alphabet are starting letters for countries of the world, I would probably answer that X and W are the only letters that don't. Easier to do than name all those that do, but it bears no relevance to a lack of understanding of the rest.

I have never said I hate my country, and I never will. Do I like the current government? No. Do I like the amount of rain we have had this year? No. Do I like everything about it? No. But there are far more things I do like about it. There is one thing that for me, would make the country and the world a much better place, but I I won't say what it is because it could upset a lot of people and I believe everyone has the right to believe in anything they wish. Oops.

All good points and I concur with the description of our country. I
also accept you don't hate our country either, and I never did think that. Some people do though and the freedom we enjoy in this country allows them to do that quite openly.

You are absolutely correct the St George, if he ever really existed, never came from England. He was, apparently, from Georgia and couldn't even speak English. As I understand it he is also Georgia's patron saint, their flag is thesame as ours. I don't really know why he was adopted as our patron saint, but I will look it up. I think just about any country in the world are not inhabited by their generic people. France, for instance, were invaded by the Francos, a Celtic race, and settled there.

[NSRailings]

Thank you.......I think! The good news for you is I wouldn't think I was actually back. If you want your national team to win and you are pleased they have won, against a foreign team, what is that if it is not being nationalistic? I do agree there is good and bad nationalism depending on what drives it.

It should'nt be about which country the other team are from. It's just about beating the other team. Wanting to beat another team beacause they're foreign smacks of isolationism.

As for national pride - the past is the past. For example, I work with alot of people who've just left university. They can't see any way to own a home in their own right - and they're intelligent, decent people. I'm not proud of this country at the moment because I think the overriding attitiude is to feather ones own nest at the expense of others.

[Blue Walter]

Thank you.......I think! The good news for you is I wouldn't think I was actually back. If you want your national team to win and you are pleased they have won, against a foreign team, what is that if it is not being nationalistic? I do agree there is good and bad nationalism depending on what drives it.

It should'nt be about which country the other team are from. It's just about beating the other team. Wanting to beat another team beacause they're foreign smacks of isolationism.

As for national pride - the past is the past. For example, I work with alot of people who've just left university. They can't see any way to own a home in their own right - and they're intelligent, decent people. I'm not proud of this country at the moment because I think the overriding attitiude is to feather ones own nest at the expense of others.

That's a bit of picking out a passage to manipulate for your own view. If England are playing another team they are by definition playing a non English team which actually translates into a foreign team. I never said I wanted to beat foreign teams because they were foreign. It is because beating their opponents, ie non English teams, they further their ambitions for progress in whatever competition they are in. Will it 'smack of isolation' me wanting Pompey to beat Wycombe in their game? Or is it because I have got a grudge against people who make damn good chairs?

[NSRailings]

I never said I wanted to beat foreign teams because they were foreign. It is because beating their opponents, ie non English teams

That's what I wrote Wally. We are playing an opposing team - nationality shouldn't come into it.

And I wasn't picking out a passage to manipulate my own view - I used your entire quote. That's an insulting thing to say. You've missed my point completely.