Scouting Non League

[Pompey55]

My 12 year old granddaughter who had her first season ticket this year and knows very little about football in general saw this plan on Facebook her comments “ why are we signing players from the national leagues if they were any good they would be playing in our league already”
Difficult for me to explain otherwise is it not

[jam tomorrow]

PB
“and how do you know you re getting a "carter" unless you take them and try them.
Walker should on paper have a success, but as we well know, football isnt played on paper”

If we could predict how successful a loan would be then it would be an ideal world. I’m saying more players like Carter but your point is valid we didn’t know at the time. However the Walker loan was more of a risk due to the fact that he wasn’t pulling up any trees at Coventry. The Carter deal was less of a risk than some of the other loans.

[Pompey1984+1]

I am a little confused over the sudden fascination with the fact we are scouting the non league, have we not been doing this for many many years?
yes i know the Cowleys made a statement about the fact they would be putting an emphasis on the non league recruitmnet, but that was also stated when they joined.
just last weekend Mitrovic overtook whittinghams goals in a season record, a player we plucked form non league non league buying him out of the army. there ahve been others along the way, the latest success probably Lowe

The fascination, as you put it, is not that we will be looking in this area (non league) as that is the sensible thing to do. It was the statement of the Cowley vision that has caused the stir. The 'vision' stated was that we "sign 4 or 5 players of promise that are good enough to play in our first team that can become assets". Firstly these assets were seen as players that can be sold at a profit, not seen as long term futures of this club. Signing up to 5 players from a standard of football much lower than we now are means the backbone of the team will be non league standard, at least initially. How many players of the first intake of these 5 players are going to make the grade? Impossible to say, of course, all of them could end up playing for England or, conversely, back in non league. The success rate would, I would suggest, possibly 2 out of the 5 if we were lucky. Signing that many players from that source would mean few, if any, established players being signed for any supposed promotion push. The plan sounds more like an entrepreneurial financial investment more than anything whereby these "assets" will be sold on at a profit which "would go straight back into the playing budget to start the process again and bring in further assets". This doesn't inspire me to think that this is a plan to build a successful team where we produce our own players for the clubs future. What it does tell me is that it confirms the thought that the club is going to be 'marking time' whilst the infrastructure is put in place until we are ready for being upwardly mobile. It suggests that for a period of time we will be a trading club and a academy outlet for bigger clubs and we will be resident in League One for sometime yet.

From what I understand this plan, or vision, has been watered down quite a lot and the non league scouting mission is going to be at sensible levels. I think Cowley's wings have been clipped with the owners looking for improvement in the playing style and competitiveness. I think he is now under pressure to deliver improvement and league placing. I think that is why he has been talking more of bringing back a couple of the loan players from last season for instance.

What I do find fascinating is can the Cowley's deliver that improvement?

Why does signing 4 or 5 players from non-league make them them back bone of the team? Have Vincent and Mingi been the backbone of the team?

Cowley likes to operate with a squad of 21 first team players and a smaller group knocking on the door that's been sold loads.of times.

[Blue Walter]

I am a little confused over the sudden fascination with the fact we are scouting the non league, have we not been doing this for many many years?
yes i know the Cowleys made a statement about the fact they would be putting an emphasis on the non league recruitmnet, but that was also stated when they joined.
just last weekend Mitrovic overtook whittinghams goals in a season record, a player we plucked form non league non league buying him out of the army. there ahve been others along the way, the latest success probably Lowe

The fascination, as you put it, is not that we will be looking in this area (non league) as that is the sensible thing to do. It was the statement of the Cowley vision that has caused the stir. The 'vision' stated was that we "sign 4 or 5 players of promise that are good enough to play in our first team that can become assets". Firstly these assets were seen as players that can be sold at a profit, not seen as long term futures of this club. Signing up to 5 players from a standard of football much lower than we now are means the backbone of the team will be non league standard, at least initially. How many players of the first intake of these 5 players are going to make the grade? Impossible to say, of course, all of them could end up playing for England or, conversely, back in non league. The success rate would, I would suggest, possibly 2 out of the 5 if we were lucky. Signing that many players from that source would mean few, if any, established players being signed for any supposed promotion push. The plan sounds more like an entrepreneurial financial investment more than anything whereby these "assets" will be sold on at a profit which "would go straight back into the playing budget to start the process again and bring in further assets". This doesn't inspire me to think that this is a plan to build a successful team where we produce our own players for the clubs future. What it does tell me is that it confirms the thought that the club is going to be 'marking time' whilst the infrastructure is put in place until we are ready for being upwardly mobile. It suggests that for a period of time we will be a trading club and a academy outlet for bigger clubs and we will be resident in League One for sometime yet.

From what I understand this plan, or vision, has been watered down quite a lot and the non league scouting mission is going to be at sensible levels. I think Cowley's wings have been clipped with the owners looking for improvement in the playing style and competitiveness. I think he is now under pressure to deliver improvement and league placing. I think that is why he has been talking more of bringing back a couple of the loan players from last season for instance.

What I do find fascinating is can the Cowley's deliver that improvement?

Why does signing 4 or 5 players from non-league make them them back bone of the team? Have Vincent and Mingi been the backbone of the team?

Cowley likes to operate with a squad of 21 first team players and a smaller group knocking on the door that's been sold loads.of times.

He wasn't talking about players knocking on the door. He was talking about players 'that were good enough to go straight into our first team'. Players that would go into the team and progress to attracting buyers.

[Pompey55]

I am a little confused over the sudden fascination with the fact we are scouting the non league, have we not been doing this for many many years?
yes i know the Cowleys made a statement about the fact they would be putting an emphasis on the non league recruitmnet, but that was also stated when they joined.
just last weekend Mitrovic overtook whittinghams goals in a season record, a player we plucked form non league non league buying him out of the army. there ahve been others along the way, the latest success probably Lowe

The fascination, as you put it, is not that we will be looking in this area (non league) as that is the sensible thing to do. It was the statement of the Cowley vision that has caused the stir. The 'vision' stated was that we "sign 4 or 5 players of promise that are good enough to play in our first team that can become assets". Firstly these assets were seen as players that can be sold at a profit, not seen as long term futures of this club. Signing up to 5 players from a standard of football much lower than we now are means the backbone of the team will be non league standard, at least initially. How many players of the first intake of these 5 players are going to make the grade? Impossible to say, of course, all of them could end up playing for England or, conversely, back in non league. The success rate would, I would suggest, possibly 2 out of the 5 if we were lucky. Signing that many players from that source would mean few, if any, established players being signed for any supposed promotion push. The plan sounds more like an entrepreneurial financial investment more than anything whereby these "assets" will be sold on at a profit which "would go straight back into the playing budget to start the process again and bring in further assets". This doesn't inspire me to think that this is a plan to build a successful team where we produce our own players for the clubs future. What it does tell me is that it confirms the thought that the club is going to be 'marking time' whilst the infrastructure is put in place until we are ready for being upwardly mobile. It suggests that for a period of time we will be a trading club and a academy outlet for bigger clubs and we will be resident in League One for sometime yet.

From what I understand this plan, or vision, has been watered down quite a lot and the non league scouting mission is going to be at sensible levels. I think Cowley's wings have been clipped with the owners looking for improvement in the playing style and competitiveness. I think he is now under pressure to deliver improvement and league placing. I think that is why he has been talking more of bringing back a couple of the loan players from last season for instance.

What I do find fascinating is can the Cowley's deliver that improvement?

Why does signing 4 or 5 players from non-league make them them back bone of the team? Have Vincent and Mingi been the backbone of the team?

Cowley likes to operate with a squad of 21 first team players and a smaller group knocking on the door that's been sold loads.of times.

He wasn't talking about players knocking on the door. He was talking about players 'that were good enough to go straight into our first team'. Players that would go into the team and progress to attracting buyers.

If that is truly the case I refer you to my previously mentioned granddaughter’s response

[PeteM]

He wasn't talking about players knocking on the door. He was talking about players 'that were good enough to go straight into our first team'. Players that would go into the team and progress to attracting buyers.

I won't go into this again and repost the actual quotes as it just causes the same debate to be had over again and I don't think it's beneficial. But since you've brought it up again BW, I will say that I didn't read his comment to be that at the time, or when reading it back since. I took it to be that he wanted 4-5 senior players to go straight into first team consideration and some others for development.

At the very least it's unclear whether that was what he meant, since he was talking about two separate things as part of the same interview.

[PeteM]

On the subject of players, I'd be interested to see if we could take a relatively cheap punt on Alfie Rutherford. He's a Pompey lad and he's really kicked on in the last couple years. Scored an awful lot of goals in National League South this season and he's got pace, movement and the ability to finish. I know the level is lower, but those qualities tend to translate up the pyramid quite well.

First watched him when he was a 16 year old for Moneyfields and scored a hat-trick that day, so have kind of kept an eye on his career since!

[GreenBlue]

On the subject of players, I'd be interested to see if we could take a relatively cheap punt on Alfie Rutherford. He's a Pompey lad and he's really kicked on in the last couple years. Scored an awful lot of goals in National League South this season and he's got pace, movement and the ability to finish. I know the level is lower, but those qualities tend to translate up the pyramid quite well.

First watched him when he was a 16 year old for Moneyfields and scored a hat-trick that day, so have kind of kept an eye on his career since!

I was thinking the exact same thing PeteM. He has, though just signed a new 3 year contract and for their level, Dorking are a wealthy club who don't need to sell to thrive. On the other hand his goal-scoring record this season has been ridiculous. 30 league goals in 18 starts

[jam tomorrow]

Please PM Dan Cowley

[Blue Walter]

He wasn't talking about players knocking on the door. He was talking about players 'that were good enough to go straight into our first team'. Players that would go into the team and progress to attracting buyers.

I won't go into this again and repost the actual quotes as it just causes the same debate to be had over again and I don't think it's beneficial. But since you've brought it up again BW, I will say that I didn't read his comment to be that at the time, or when reading it back since. I took it to be that he wanted 4-5 senior players to go straight into first team consideration and some others for development.

At the very least it's unclear whether that was what he meant, since he was talking about two separate things as part of the same interview.

Yes Pete, as you say, this subject has been done to death, but I didn't actually bring the subject up. The thread is themed 'Non League Scouting' and I could not post on this particular thread without reiterating my veiws on this subject.

I agree there is a certain amount of ambiguity in this and the interview was actually printed over a couple of separate times, which also clouds the contents. However, he did say (according to the News) that he wanted "4 or 5 players of promise from the lower leagues that are good enough to go straight into our team and flourish. They will then be assets that can be sold at a profit". That particular quote gives the reader the impression that the team will contain a large number of players representing our club in the coming seasons. You can point to that as being conjecture and say he meant something else but this issue does need clarification by the club. I have contacted Mr Cullen and the only reply I have had is a sort of 'we will explain later' type of response. My unreliable source has told me that the plan has been greeted with a certain amount of scepticism within the club and has been watered down. The view is, so I am told, that playing improvement is wanted to be seen sooner rather than later and having so many inexperienced players at the club at first team level will mean a longer upgrade and a gamble. I have to stress though that this source is unreliable and, more often than not, what has come to public perception.

I read an article recently concerning the plight of Oldham Athletic. The person who was behind the article was some one within the management of the club but I can't remember in what capacity. Apparently the club scoured the National League for the best players and signed them for this season just finished. The side was largely made up of players from that league and the outcome is that the club will be playing in the National League next season.

[Pompey55]

Apparently according to Hampshire Live our plan B if we can’t sign Carter is to go for an Altrinham centre half who is out of contract I noticed he is 26 and has played 177 games for them so about 4 seasons surely if he had potential someone would have noticed by now, if this part of the plan I worry

[jam tomorrow]

According to the snooze we have been turned down by Richard Hughes’s who is highly rated for his good transfer dealings which have helped Forest Green Rovers get promoted to League One. So it’s back to the drawing board I’m afraid and this news will set back our transfer plans whether non league or not.Just hope we have another good target lined up

[Weybridge]

Apparently according to Hampshire Live our plan B if we can’t sign Carter is to go for an Altrinham centre half who is out of contract I noticed he is 26 and has played 177 games for them so about 4 seasons surely if he had potential someone would have noticed by now, if this part of the plan I worry

It does seem a bit of a jump, doesn't it? But its not necessarily Player X saying No, therefore Player Y is his direct replacement. It may well be just a practical choice to have Player Y in the squad regardless.

I also find fault with the 'someone would have noticed by now' theory. Since I started doing some non-league work, I never quite appreciated just how many players there are at that level. Staines just had the worst season in their history, almost folding - and went through 112 players this year. That doesn't include the myriad triallist matches to unearth some hidden gems. Especially around London, its a relentless revolving door of unknowns, many of whom never had the chance to play proper school football and therefore never got picked up as a youngster. And while there are a few scouts and agents around - they're not exactly queueing up to watch a game at Binfield or somewhere in front of 50 people on the proverbial wet Tuesday night.

Don't get me wrong, there's a huge amount of dross out there. But I can think of at least 5-6 players at Step 6 this year who will definitely climb the ladder.

[PeteM]

Yes Pete, as you say, this subject has been done to death, but I didn't actually bring the subject up. The thread is themed 'Non League Scouting' and I could not post on this particular thread without reiterating my veiws on this subject.

I agree there is a certain amount of ambiguity in this and the interview was actually printed over a couple of separate times, which also clouds the contents. However, he did say (according to the News) that he wanted "4 or 5 players of promise from the lower leagues that are good enough to go straight into our team and flourish. They will then be assets that can be sold at a profit". That particular quote gives the reader the impression that the team will contain a large number of players representing our club in the coming seasons. You can point to that as being conjecture and say he meant something else but this issue does need clarification by the club. I have contacted Mr Cullen and the only reply I have had is a sort of 'we will explain later' type of response. My unreliable source has told me that the plan has been greeted with a certain amount of scepticism within the club and has been watered down. The view is, so I am told, that playing improvement is wanted to be seen sooner rather than later and having so many inexperienced players at the club at first team level will mean a longer upgrade and a gamble. I have to stress though that this source is unreliable and, more often than not, what has come to public perception.

I read an article recently concerning the plight of Oldham Athletic. The person who was behind the article was some one within the management of the club but I can't remember in what capacity. Apparently the club scoured the National League for the best players and signed them for this season just finished. The side was largely made up of players from that league and the outcome is that the club will be playing in the National League next season.

For clarity, the link to the News article is here, in which both subjects are covered:

https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/foot ... re-3555478

Guess everyone can make their own judgement - like you say, it can be viewed as ambiguous, but I took that to mean that Cowley isn't saying that he only wants to sign players from lower leagues. I'd be amazed if any ambitious manager didn't want to sign the best possible players available within our budget, for their own career as much as anything else.

I'd be a little surprised if the club clarified their transfer policy every time a supporter emailed them, to be honest. Actions this summer will speak louder than words anyway. It sounds like the club are going to release the purse strings slightly, so perhaps the market we're shopping in will change a bit. Hopefully we can put together a squad capable of a promotion challenge.

On a separate note, the problems at Oldham Athletic run far, far deeper than recruitment - their fans have been protesting about their owners running the club into the ground for years. Haven't read the article myself, so can't comment totally, but it looks to be factually incorrect from a quick check online - of their permanent signings last season, seven came from other League Two clubs and only three from non-league clubs (one from National League Premier, one from National League North and one from the Northern Premier).

[Blue Walter]

I agree that I wouldn't have thought any plan for recruitment would have been exclusive to one source, and I never thought it would be anyway.

I am sure Cowley is ambitious and this job won't be his last. He will leave here one day and he will be hoping it is for somewhere bigger and better. To do that, just the same as anywhere else really, the more plusses on his CV the better. He will want to demonstrate a wide variety of skills in managing a football club for any would be future employment. Unearthing 'gems' and making big profits on them is an attractive skill, as is identifying good players. If he is successful that would be good for us. So I wouldn't think he would be approaching any 'plan' lightly but it could also be a gamble that doesn't pay off.

I didn't think that me and Mr Cullen would become 'bezzies' overnight and that he would lay out his clubs plans to me, and I never asked for that an anyway. There was always good dialog with his predecessor though and he would always reply to emails.

As for the Oldham situation I think it may have been in the Football League paper, either that or one of the Red Tops, that I saw the article. Judging by your research it would appear it was not entirely accurate.