Privatise the NHS?

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Re: Privatise the NHS?

Post by RubiconCSL »

Yawn
NSRailings wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 6:08 pm
Blue Walter wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 1:26 pm I think we should keep the NHS at all costs.
Don't mention things like that to a Tory. Prescription charges will double :roll:
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Re: Privatise the NHS?

Post by Sam_Brown »

To be fair Labour are more like the conservatives than the conservatives these days. Anyone who voted Tory in 2010 should probably vote Labour at the next election as they are pretty much the same thing now. God knows what the current Tory party are.

That’s assuming people vote on policy and not just the name regardless of what the policies are.
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Re: Privatise the NHS?

Post by Blue Walter »

Sam_Brown wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 3:45 pm
Blue Walter wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 3:01 pm
Sam_Brown wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 2:02 pm
Blue Walter wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 1:26 pm I think we should keep the NHS at all costs. It is still envied all round the world but we are going through a period where its not working properly. There are many reasons for this but it must be corrected and brought back to how it was. Our health system must not go back to how rich a person is in the quality of care they receive, they can do that with investing in private medical provision.

However, I would like to see the rail system, water, sewage, gas and electricity industries nationalised. If you take the railway most of that is owned by French & German companies. The railway system in their countries are largely subsidised and under the control of the government's of those countries. Profits made in our country, largely, goes back to both those countries.
Pretty much agree with everything you say BW. I have one query. When you say it needs to go back to “how it was” what do you mean by that exactly?
What I mean by how it was is exactly that, how it was when it first started in 1947. I know the infrastructure has under gone the required revamping but I don't think they should move too far away from the original concept.
Are the requirements the same though? I don't say this to be facetious - I appreciate it may come across that way.

It seems from my point of view there is a lot more strain in terms of long term care required, especially with the elderly, than there used to be. People are living for longer either through just old age or because they aren't dying from things that would used to kill people. I know firsthand how many times my grandparents have gone into hospital and how it extended my grandads life by a good 10 - 15 years but towards the end it was a constant drain on resources and I felt his quality of life was so bad it would have been better to have gone at home than sitting in a bed for two months. I appreciate my post here is massively swayed by that experience. I also know the demographic of the board is probably weighted towards the upper age limits so I apologies for my clumsiness here.

From a personal \ micro level I completely appreciate the extra time I've spent with my grandparents I might not have had. From a macro \ national level I can see how people living longer can be a massive drain on the system and that is a big problem that needs addressing. Trying to reconcile those two points of view it almost impossible. Oh to be a sociopath sometimes.

This is not the only issue. There are issues with the management \ running of the service as well as more unhealthy fatties (like myself) who will probably be a drain whereas I wouldn't have 50 years ago where I'd probably not have the chance to get fat lol. Also need to add on relatively new things like mental health care which seems to be a growing issue and probably something that wasn't really a major thing back in the day.

I agree times have changed and so has the patients requirements. People are living longer which means age related afflictions are more prevalent. Back in the early part of last century if a man made it to retirement age they were pretty well buggered and worn out, an old man at 65. Today 60 year olds are a bunch of herberts in comparison. Therefore the NHS has had to change to cater for all of the change in the way we live. Nevertheless, I still believe that the original concept is the format to work to concerning the NHS. I would back an increase in National Insurance contributions if that would help get the service back on track. We definitely need home grown doctors and medical staff to work in the Health Service so I would back any move that increases that man power shortage. Making a career in the Health Service more attractive is needed. I don't believe that it is fair to make nursing a vocational job only as the incentive to go into the service. In the meantime we have to rely on foreign nursing staff to make up the short fall, many coming from countries that need them to stay there. I would assume that the attraction for foreign nursing staff is higher pay than they get in their own country and, possibly, a way into this country.
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Re: Privatise the NHS?

Post by No Shot Sherlock »

Trouble with the NHS is that everyone wants and expects a gold standard service but nobody wants to pay for it. End of.
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Re: Privatise the NHS?

Post by Betelgeuse »

I took out private healthcare last year, I don't want to be waiting months for treatment should I need it. I don't suppose countries like France and Germany envy our waiting lists.
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Re: Privatise the NHS?

Post by Blue Walter »

Betelgeuse wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 8:58 am I took out private healthcare last year, I don't want to be waiting months for treatment should I need it. I don't suppose countries like France and Germany envy our waiting lists.
I don't suppose they do envy the waiting lists but it is the concept of the NHS which is widely respected. The French health system also gets plenty of criticism as well and is far from perfect. Treatment has to be paid for by the patient which is returned via tax rebate at the end of the years. That is a rather simplified description of their system and there is, no doubt, a far better explanation of how it works.
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Re: Privatise the NHS?

Post by Pompey55 »

No Shot Sherlock wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 11:13 pm Trouble with the NHS is that everyone wants and expects a gold standard service but nobody wants to pay for it. End of.
I think that people might be prepared to pay more if they know that that money is ring fenced
The problem is that the original NI payments were exactly that but are now just another general tax we all knew that what our “stamp” was to be used for before it was absorbed into the general kitty
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Re: Privatise the NHS?

Post by Milton End »

Betelgeuse wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 8:58 am I took out private healthcare last year, I don't want to be waiting months for treatment should I need it. I don't suppose countries like France and Germany envy our waiting lists.
Had private healthcare for many years.

Than, as I became older (but with no major problems), BUPA wanted to charge me £800 per month....Guess what happened next....
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Re: Privatise the NHS?

Post by Charente »

There have been a few comments about the French health service which are misleading. Generally payments are made at the time of the consultation etc, and most is refunded in a few days through the Government and top up insurance. Exceptions are made for those on low income and those being treated for life threatening diseases. Also, no payments are made at point of use for prescriptions and tests at labs. If you ask the French people they generally say things are getting worse, the problem of demand due to an ageing population applies here as in the UK. French health professionals believe health care is still better here than the UK, but they think medical research is better in Britain (and the USA). It is difficult to compare the two systems. And when people say the NHS is free at the point of use, it does not take into account other costs such as car parking or paying for a taxi/bus fare to get to the hospital, both of which are free in France.
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Re: Privatise the NHS?

Post by Blue Walter »

Charente wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 12:23 pm There have been a few comments about the French health service which are misleading. Generally payments are made at the time of the consultation etc, and most is refunded in a few days through the Government and top up insurance. Exceptions are made for those on low income and those being treated for life threatening diseases. Also, no payments are made at point of use for prescriptions and tests at labs. If you ask the French people they generally say things are getting worse, the problem of demand due to an ageing population applies here as in the UK. French health professionals believe health care is still better here than the UK, but they think medical research is better in Britain (and the USA). It is difficult to compare the two systems. And when people say the NHS is free at the point of use, it does not take into account other costs such as car parking or paying for a taxi/bus fare to get to the hospital, both of which are free in France.
Thank you for clarification on this. I did say I had over simplified the French system and it would be better explained by someone else. I was basing my knowledge, or lack of it, from a friend of mine who has got family in France and he has lived there himself. It was his wife, who is French, that told me that people are generally not happy with it. She had lived here for some time so she is able to veiw both systems. I do know a couple of Americans who live here and they think the NHS is wonderful.
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Re: Privatise the NHS?

Post by RubiconCSL »

We, like you, have had PMI for many years - probably 30+. I was self-employed and couldn't afford to take time off unpaid if I was in a queue for treatment. It's a bit like doing the same numbers each week in the lottery - once you start, you have to carry on as long as you can. You just know, as soon as you stop, you'll need it!

Shop around and prepare to add a hefty (but probably affordable) excess and it's still just about doable. I don't know how old you are, but the mrs and I are now 60+. With a £1000 excess and paying annually, we got ours *down* to £1800 for the two of us with Saga and that even includes dental (with no excess), which claws back two months premiums. Last year, they even paid out for new invisalign kit that cost £500, so we probably got nearly half back last year. If the worst comes to the worst, I'm sure we can rustle up a grand to get private care. £1800 still isn't exactly cheap, but nothing near £800 a month! Of course, as we get older we'll have to eventually give up and put ourselves at the mercy of the NHS, but we'll have to worry about that as and when and if it happens :(
Milton End wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 11:27 am
Betelgeuse wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 8:58 am I took out private healthcare last year, I don't want to be waiting months for treatment should I need it. I don't suppose countries like France and Germany envy our waiting lists.
Had private healthcare for many years.

Than, as I became older (but with no major problems), BUPA wanted to charge me £800 per month....Guess what happened next....
Like many, trust few and always paddle you own canoe.
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Re: Privatise the NHS?

Post by Betelgeuse »

RubiconCSL wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 1:30 pm We, like you, have had PMI for many years - probably 30+. I was self-employed and couldn't afford to take time off unpaid if I was in a queue for treatment. It's a bit like doing the same numbers each week in the lottery - once you start, you have to carry on as long as you can. You just know, as soon as you stop, you'll need it!

Shop around and prepare to add a hefty (but probably affordable) excess and it's still just about doable. I don't know how old you are, but the mrs and I are now 60+. With a £1000 excess and paying annually, we got ours *down* to £1800 for the two of us with Saga and that even includes dental (with no excess), which claws back two months premiums. Last year, they even paid out for new invisalign kit that cost £500, so we probably got nearly half back last year. If the worst comes to the worst, I'm sure we can rustle up a grand to get private care. £1800 still isn't exactly cheap, but nothing near £800 a month! Of course, as we get older we'll have to eventually give up and put ourselves at the mercy of the NHS, but we'll have to worry about that as and when and if it happens :(
Milton End wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 11:27 am
Betelgeuse wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 8:58 am I took out private healthcare last year, I don't want to be waiting months for treatment should I need it. I don't suppose countries like France and Germany envy our waiting lists.
Had private healthcare for many years.

Than, as I became older (but with no major problems), BUPA wanted to charge me £800 per month....Guess what happened next....
Mine is £105pm with a £250 excess. Inspire Health. Certainly worth shopping around. I'm over 60...just.
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Re: Privatise the NHS?

Post by Weybridge »

Blue Walter wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 3:01 pm
Sam_Brown wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 2:02 pm
Blue Walter wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 1:26 pm I think we should keep the NHS at all costs. It is still envied all round the world but we are going through a period where its not working properly. There are many reasons for this but it must be corrected and brought back to how it was. Our health system must not go back to how rich a person is in the quality of care they receive, they can do that with investing in private medical provision.

However, I would like to see the rail system, water, sewage, gas and electricity industries nationalised. If you take the railway most of that is owned by French & German companies. The railway system in their countries are largely subsidised and under the control of the government's of those countries. Profits made in our country, largely, goes back to both those countries.
Pretty much agree with everything you say BW. I have one query. When you say it needs to go back to “how it was” what do you mean by that exactly?
What I mean by how it was is exactly that, how it was when it first started in 1947. I know the infrastructure has under gone the required revamping but I don't think they should move too far away from the original concept.
There's no doubt we should do everything in our power to protect and retain the NHS. But its fair to say it has always been a huge drain on the economy, even back in 1947. It was massively overbudget in its first year and something like £2m overbudget within three years. The warning/opposition against it at the time was the general public would always take it for all it could get - and thats exactly what happened (and understandable, considering many of the population had never visited a doctor in their lives). As such, it took just five years before they pulled prescriptions, dentistry, podiatry and opthalmology off the 'free' list. Bevan quit over it.

But the NHS, despite its cost added ten years to the average lifespan within a generation. It cut infant mortality rates in half and wiped out deaths from diptheria, whooping cough and typhoid at a stroke. Communities got healthy instead of being a breeding ground for disease. I guess my point is this, what happens when you take away that free healthcare?

I believe if you're going to have a drain on the economy, let it be on healthcare. An economically strong nation is pointless if the population is weak. Not to mention unjust. As Bevan said 'Illness is not an indulgence for which people should have to pay'.
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