Is there still law in this country?

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eltorrro
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Re: Is there still law in this country?

Post by eltorrro »

The Cincinnati Kid wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:16 pm You can get nicked for wearing a very unsavory tee shirt to the cup final though.
As BG has said, the police are soon on the case for a supposed 'hate crime' but not for 'real crimes'?
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Re: Is there still law in this country?

Post by Pompey1984+1 »

Sam_Brown wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:11 am So what's the solution?
Prison is only a deterrent to those who have something to lose, those with things to lose are already by and large law abiding citizens.

To reduce crime you have to look at the causes of crime - using this thread as an example drugs - drug addiction, especially things like heroin often goes hand in hand with deprivation. More deprived areas have a greater number of drug addicts, now there is an argument to suggest that the areas are deprived because of the drug addicts but the deprecation increases the chances of being a drug addict. So like so many things in society it's intended with other aspects of our society. There is no simple answer.

I can't recall who, but a geographer did some work on does the creative industry attract the LGBTQ+ community or are the creative industries attracted by the LGBTQ+ community. It's just come back to me, Richard Florida.

A lecturer from the university of Portsmouth did a similar piece on the sex industry, does it make an area seedy or does the seedy area attract the sex industry but I digress.
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Re: Is there still law in this country?

Post by Blue Walter »

Sam_Brown wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:11 am So what's the solution?

That where the difficulty comes in. The easy bit is complaining about things and suggesting what should be done and the hard bit is implementing it. Thats why the easiest MP's job in the House of Commons is on the opposition benches.

I will have a stab though. More 'bobbies' on the beat (or the modern equivalent, coppers patroling on E bikes) would help. We obviously need more policemen so the job has to be made attractive, but not too financially as it should still be a vocational desire to join the police as we don't want the wrong type of person. I wonder that in the interim period there could be a tie up with the armed forces. People leaving the armed forces could be encouraged and fast tracked into the police force as they will have the necessary discipline associated with uniformed duty. I wonder whether where acute shortages of police personel are being experienced army personal could be seconded to local police forces. Possibly more special constables could be recruited for paid service time. Possibly a standing police reserve force could be formed along the lines of the Territorial Army Reserve. Possibly a more tierd police force where more members of the public are recruited to do the work carried out by coppers who would be out on the beat otherwise. Tougher sentences and a less lenient set of judges would help with the morale of the police and public would help.

Like I say the easy bit is making the suggesting and complaining but something has to be done.
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Re: Is there still law in this country?

Post by GreenBlue »

Betelgeuse wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:55 am 1. You do not steal, if you steal you should be prosecuted. But someone coming into a shop and scooping items into a bag is clearly not doing it to feed their family. It's probably for drugs.
2. I notice you mention Tory rags. You've just turned this into a political argument.
3. Police should not be showing their racial, political and sexual preferences, they are there to police.
4. Funny how the police can prioritise "hate crime" and arrest someone for "offending" someone, yet are unable to deal with "actual crime".
5. The kind of shoplifting BW is talking about has nothing to do with poverty, more like selling to buy drugs.
1. I agree we should not steal but the police can only prosecute if they are called and the perpetrator is caught. and then, do you realise how expensive the process is to charge and take someone to court. far more that the value of the average shoplift (I again make it clear, I do not condone or support shoplifting). Then, if found guilty, what sentence do you think would be passed down?
2. My argument is why people are up in arms about low-level crime but turn a blind eye to the multi-million pound abuse of power in this country.
3. Why should Police not be allowed to show their preferences? I agree that if they are attending a scene they must remain impartial but Pride is not a scene. It is a carnival, a celebration, a community event. Following on from your argument, should a police officer be allowed to attend church or follow their favourite football team? Surely they are showing preferences too?
4. Hate crime IS an actual crime and a more serious one than shoplifting. Not my view... fact.
5. I don't have enough forensic detail to agree or disagree with your prognosis that the case referred to by BW "has nothing to do with poverty, more like selling to buy drugs" but wow, you you must be one hell of a detective to make that decision based on so little information. there is a massive push currently within policing, to eradicate this kind of unconscious bias.
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Re: Is there still law in this country?

Post by BlueinPLtwenty »

eltorrro wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:18 pm
Sam_Brown wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:11 am So what's the solution?
More severe punishment?
If perpetrator not British Citizen...deportation?

That would be a start
The "Do Gooders" would shout `Human rights` and issue a summons to delay the deportation. It would then be caught in the backlog in the Court System and the perpetrator would abscond
You can take the man out of Pompey
But you can`t take Pompey out of the man
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Re: Is there still law in this country?

Post by Pompey1984+1 »

This thread is depressing :-(
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Re: Is there still law in this country?

Post by Blue Walter »

GreenBlue wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:01 pm
Betelgeuse wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:55 am 1. You do not steal, if you steal you should be prosecuted. But someone coming into a shop and scooping items into a bag is clearly not doing it to feed their family. It's probably for drugs.
2. I notice you mention Tory rags. You've just turned this into a political argument.
3. Police should not be showing their racial, political and sexual preferences, they are there to police.
4. Funny how the police can prioritise "hate crime" and arrest someone for "offending" someone, yet are unable to deal with "actual crime".
5. The kind of shoplifting BW is talking about has nothing to do with poverty, more like selling to buy drugs.
1. I agree we should not steal but the police can only prosecute if they are called and the perpetrator is caught. and then, do you realise how expensive the process is to charge and take someone to court. far more that the value of the average shoplift (I again make it clear, I do not condone or support shoplifting). Then, if found guilty, what sentence do you think would be passed down?
2. My argument is why people are up in arms about low-level crime but turn a blind eye to the multi-million pound abuse of power in this country.
3. Why should Police not be allowed to show their preferences? I agree that if they are attending a scene they must remain impartial but Pride is not a scene. It is a carnival, a celebration, a community event. Following on from your argument, should a police officer be allowed to attend church or follow their favourite football team? Surely they are showing preferences too?
4. Hate crime IS an actual crime and a more serious one than shoplifting. Not my view... fact.
5. I don't have enough forensic detail to agree or disagree with your prognosis that the case referred to by BW "has nothing to do with poverty, more like selling to buy drugs" but wow, you you must be one hell of a detective to make that decision based on so little information. there is a massive push currently within policing, to eradicate this kind of unconscious bias.

You are viewing 'low level' crime in monetary terms by suggesting the cost of the process and investigation would rule out police participation. The actual 'cost' is more than the goods actually stolen. Firstly by arresting the perpetrators could stop some of them re offending. The shop staff could be sprared having to face witnessing thieving every day and may even feel safer at work. Other customers would feel better about going into shops too.

I disagree with you concerning the behaviour of police on duty. They are there as a deterrent against misbehavior as well as keeping order. You would soon feel less confident about anti terrorist police on duty at an airport doing the Hokey Cokey and a rendition of "I am a little teapot". They look intimidating but reassuring that they are professional and very much a deterrent to would be terrorist. I did know a policeman who regularly attended Fratton Park as a fan who would join in all the chanting and the rest that goes with watching your team. I would not expect him to be on duty and shouting 'Scummers' at players who had the temerity to play for our dear neighbours. When on duty I would expect the police to adhere strictly to doing what they are there for. Any one in the police force should be able to live a normal life away from work within the confines of their contracted 'do' & dont's'.

Police attending carnival events are there to make sure that the event goes off safely and without incident. Not frolicking with the people attending it. They should also be seen to uphold the law instead of making fools of themselves.

In the incident that I witnessed I would expect the culprits house to be gleaming, with a fragrance in the air, and the most shiny kitchen in town. That's judging by the goods he was shovelling into his bag. I looked down the Isle where he was doing most of his free shopping and it was mostly cleaning products. I would hazard a guess that, perhaps, he sold his haul.

'Unconscious bias' is an interesting theory. I suppose we should all educate ourselves on this. Next time I witness people swearing at those around them whilst stealing I must consider his feelings. Or the person that broke into my house and stole things that I worked for, or the sentimental items that he stole from me, I should have realised that he was more entitled to them than me. Or the copper that came round a day afterwards who told me "it was probably just for drug money', I should have left the door open for him. That would have save my doors being levered off the hinges with a crow bar and avoided the glass being broken. If I ever found out who done it I would most thoughtfully and courteously fit a bit of wood on his head. Which is more than the police done, although in fairness they did give me details of where I could find counselling.
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Re: Is there still law in this country?

Post by Sam_Brown »

I remember when I was in London earlier in the year round Edgeware Road / Marylebone. Some guy was attempting to break into a phone box. I confronted him and he had no shame. Second I opened the phone box door he asked me if I had any change. More than likely for drugs. I told him I was going to call the police and all he said was “close the door it’s ****** freezing”. Dude had no fear of being caught.

Went in and called the police to be told someone would check it out in a few hours. Obviously he’d be long gone by then.

Hard to believe I know. That there are still phone boxes in London. Not so hard to believe the response.
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Re: Is there still law in this country?

Post by eltorrro »

Pompey1984+1 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:21 pm This thread is depressing :-(
Yes, it is..but it's even more depressing when you have to experience it first hand (as in being the shopkeeper, shop assistant, householder, etc.)

I did, some years ago, as a burgled householder and it was the catalyst that made me emigrate here in Spain.
One of the good things about Spain is we don't get that sort of thing happening very often. The reason?
Firstly, if you are caught and apprehended by the Guardia Seville or local Police, you will probably get roughed up (especially if under the influence of drugs/alcohol) and then the Magistrates will give a custodial sentence (and the prison system in Spain is not very nice!) so shoplifting and burglary don't happen very often!

Why isn't it like that in UK? :roll:
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Re: Is there still law in this country?

Post by Pompey1984+1 »

eltorrro wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:14 pm
Pompey1984+1 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:21 pm This thread is depressing :-(
Yes, it is..but it's even more depressing when you have to experience it first hand (as in being the shopkeeper, shop assistant, householder, etc.)

I did, some years ago, as a burgled householder and it was the catalyst that made me emigrate here in Spain.
One of the good things about Spain is we don't get that sort of thing happening very often. The reason?
Firstly, if you are caught and apprehended by the Guardia Seville or local Police, you will probably get roughed up (especially if under the influence of drugs/alcohol) and then the Magistrates will give a custodial sentence (and the prison system in Spain is not very nice!) so shoplifting and burglary don't happen very often!

Why isn't it like that in UK? :roll:
Because the prisons are full, the hospitals are full, public services are beyond breaking point. It's the people in the boats fault though for the state of the public services in this country, before then it was the EU's fault.
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Re: Is there still law in this country?

Post by eltorrro »

I just happened to have read this.

It epitomises what is wrong with UK law!!

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england- ... -65815028

60 hours of unpaid work when he nearly killed somebody??? Scandalous!!
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Re: Is there still law in this country?

Post by Betelgeuse »

GreenBlue wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:01 pm
Betelgeuse wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:55 am 1. You do not steal, if you steal you should be prosecuted. But someone coming into a shop and scooping items into a bag is clearly not doing it to feed their family. It's probably for drugs.
2. I notice you mention Tory rags. You've just turned this into a political argument.
3. Police should not be showing their racial, political and sexual preferences, they are there to police.
4. Funny how the police can prioritise "hate crime" and arrest someone for "offending" someone, yet are unable to deal with "actual crime".
5. The kind of shoplifting BW is talking about has nothing to do with poverty, more like selling to buy drugs.
1. I agree we should not steal but the police can only prosecute if they are called and the perpetrator is caught. and then, do you realise how expensive the process is to charge and take someone to court. far more that the value of the average shoplift (I again make it clear, I do not condone or support shoplifting). Then, if found guilty, what sentence do you think would be passed down?
2. My argument is why people are up in arms about low-level crime but turn a blind eye to the multi-million pound abuse of power in this country.
3. Why should Police not be allowed to show their preferences? I agree that if they are attending a scene they must remain impartial but Pride is not a scene. It is a carnival, a celebration, a community event. Following on from your argument, should a police officer be allowed to attend church or follow their favourite football team? Surely they are showing preferences too?
4. Hate crime IS an actual crime and a more serious one than shoplifting. Not my view... fact.
5. I don't have enough forensic detail to agree or disagree with your prognosis that the case referred to by BW "has nothing to do with poverty, more like selling to buy drugs" but wow, you you must be one hell of a detective to make that decision based on so little information. there is a massive push currently within policing, to eradicate this kind of unconscious bias.
1. Poor excuse.
2. Such as? And we will get the chance at the next election.
3. I'm talking about on duty police.
4. Hurty feelings ******.
5. It's impossible not to have unconscious bias when you know the type of people who commit these crimes. Sounds like left wing wokey bs to me.
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Re: Is there still law in this country?

Post by eltorrro »

Betelgeuse wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:52 pm
GreenBlue wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:01 pm
Betelgeuse wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:55 am 1. You do not steal, if you steal you should be prosecuted. But someone coming into a shop and scooping items into a bag is clearly not doing it to feed their family. It's probably for drugs.
2. I notice you mention Tory rags. You've just turned this into a political argument.
3. Police should not be showing their racial, political and sexual preferences, they are there to police.
4. Funny how the police can prioritise "hate crime" and arrest someone for "offending" someone, yet are unable to deal with "actual crime".
5. The kind of shoplifting BW is talking about has nothing to do with poverty, more like selling to buy drugs.
1. I agree we should not steal but the police can only prosecute if they are called and the perpetrator is caught. and then, do you realise how expensive the process is to charge and take someone to court. far more that the value of the average shoplift (I again make it clear, I do not condone or support shoplifting). Then, if found guilty, what sentence do you think would be passed down?
2. My argument is why people are up in arms about low-level crime but turn a blind eye to the multi-million pound abuse of power in this country.
3. Why should Police not be allowed to show their preferences? I agree that if they are attending a scene they must remain impartial but Pride is not a scene. It is a carnival, a celebration, a community event. Following on from your argument, should a police officer be allowed to attend church or follow their favourite football team? Surely they are showing preferences too?
4. Hate crime IS an actual crime and a more serious one than shoplifting. Not my view... fact.
5. I don't have enough forensic detail to agree or disagree with your prognosis that the case referred to by BW "has nothing to do with poverty, more like selling to buy drugs" but wow, you you must be one hell of a detective to make that decision based on so little information. there is a massive push currently within policing, to eradicate this kind of unconscious bias.
1. Poor excuse.
2. Such as? And we will get the chance at the next election.
3. I'm talking about on duty police.
4. Hurty feelings ******.
5. It's impossible not to have unconscious bias when you know the type of people who commit these crimes. Sounds like left wing wokey bs to me.
Particularly agree with your response to 4.
Have you seen this?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-65814126

That poor man being told to go back home!! He was probably scarred for life!! :roll:
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Re: Is there still law in this country?

Post by Pompey55 »

Pompey1984+1 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:21 pm This thread is depressing :-(
Never mind only a short time and we can all have depressing discussions regarding our recruitment
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Re: Is there still law in this country?

Post by Pompey1984+1 »

eltorrro wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:21 pm
Betelgeuse wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:52 pm
GreenBlue wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:01 pm
Betelgeuse wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:55 am 1. You do not steal, if you steal you should be prosecuted. But someone coming into a shop and scooping items into a bag is clearly not doing it to feed their family. It's probably for drugs.
2. I notice you mention Tory rags. You've just turned this into a political argument.
3. Police should not be showing their racial, political and sexual preferences, they are there to police.
4. Funny how the police can prioritise "hate crime" and arrest someone for "offending" someone, yet are unable to deal with "actual crime".
5. The kind of shoplifting BW is talking about has nothing to do with poverty, more like selling to buy drugs.
1. I agree we should not steal but the police can only prosecute if they are called and the perpetrator is caught. and then, do you realise how expensive the process is to charge and take someone to court. far more that the value of the average shoplift (I again make it clear, I do not condone or support shoplifting). Then, if found guilty, what sentence do you think would be passed down?
2. My argument is why people are up in arms about low-level crime but turn a blind eye to the multi-million pound abuse of power in this country.
3. Why should Police not be allowed to show their preferences? I agree that if they are attending a scene they must remain impartial but Pride is not a scene. It is a carnival, a celebration, a community event. Following on from your argument, should a police officer be allowed to attend church or follow their favourite football team? Surely they are showing preferences too?
4. Hate crime IS an actual crime and a more serious one than shoplifting. Not my view... fact.
5. I don't have enough forensic detail to agree or disagree with your prognosis that the case referred to by BW "has nothing to do with poverty, more like selling to buy drugs" but wow, you you must be one hell of a detective to make that decision based on so little information. there is a massive push currently within policing, to eradicate this kind of unconscious bias.
1. Poor excuse.
2. Such as? And we will get the chance at the next election.
3. I'm talking about on duty police.
4. Hurty feelings ******.
5. It's impossible not to have unconscious bias when you know the type of people who commit these crimes. Sounds like left wing wokey bs to me.
Particularly agree with your response to 4.
Have you seen this?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-65814126

That poor man being told to go back home!! He was probably scarred for life!! :roll:
You live in Spain right? Have you ever been told to go back home because you look or dress differently? How would you feel if you were?
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