Is there still law in this country?

[eltorrro]

1. You do not steal, if you steal you should be prosecuted. But someone coming into a shop and scooping items into a bag is clearly not doing it to feed their family. It's probably for drugs.
2. I notice you mention Tory rags. You've just turned this into a political argument.
3. Police should not be showing their racial, political and sexual preferences, they are there to police.
4. Funny how the police can prioritise "hate crime" and arrest someone for "offending" someone, yet are unable to deal with "actual crime".
5. The kind of shoplifting BW is talking about has nothing to do with poverty, more like selling to buy drugs.

1. I agree we should not steal but the police can only prosecute if they are called and the perpetrator is caught. and then, do you realise how expensive the process is to charge and take someone to court. far more that the value of the average shoplift (I again make it clear, I do not condone or support shoplifting). Then, if found guilty, what sentence do you think would be passed down?
2. My argument is why people are up in arms about low-level crime but turn a blind eye to the multi-million pound abuse of power in this country.
3. Why should Police not be allowed to show their preferences? I agree that if they are attending a scene they must remain impartial but Pride is not a scene. It is a carnival, a celebration, a community event. Following on from your argument, should a police officer be allowed to attend church or follow their favourite football team? Surely they are showing preferences too?
4. Hate crime IS an actual crime and a more serious one than shoplifting. Not my view... fact.
5. I don't have enough forensic detail to agree or disagree with your prognosis that the case referred to by BW "has nothing to do with poverty, more like selling to buy drugs" but wow, you you must be one hell of a detective to make that decision based on so little information. there is a massive push currently within policing, to eradicate this kind of unconscious bias.

1. Poor excuse.
2. Such as? And we will get the chance at the next election.
3. I'm talking about on duty police.
4. Hurty feelings ******.
5. It's impossible not to have unconscious bias when you know the type of people who commit these crimes. Sounds like left wing wokey bs to me.

Particularly agree with your response to 4.
Have you seen this?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-65814126

That poor man being told to go back home!! He was probably scarred for life!!

You live in Spain right? Have you ever been told to go back home because you look or dress differently? How would you feel if you were?

Oh yes, we get the odd name call or ignored but you just shrug it off and carry on. The thing is though, us Brits are mostly welcomed here because we contribute quite a lot to the country's finance. Over here there is no such thing as hand-outs or benefits (well there is but for a very brief period) which is why there are not many immigrants or asylum seekers. Actually, regards asylum seekers, Spain has a tendency to ship them all back from whence they came!..and nobody seems to admonish them or quote 'human rights'.

[PeteM]

The thing is though, us Brits are mostly welcomed here because we contribute quite a lot to the country's finance.

Actually and perhaps surprisingly given the general tone of the current political debate on the subject, immigration is also a net economic benefit to Britain's public finances. Pretty much every academic study suggests that there is a significant positive impact (to the tune of billions of pounds a year) to the British economy as a result of immigration.

The conclusion of one article I've just been reading (the second link below) states "Our analysis thus suggests that – rather than being a drain on the UK’s fiscal system – immigrants arriving since the early 2000s have made a net contributions to its public finances, a reality that contrasts starkly with the view often maintained in public debate."

So maybe the immigrants to the UK are equally contributing to our public finances as you are in Spain.

The links below make for some interesting reading, whatever your views on immigration are positive or negative:

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/r ... in-the-uk/

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/economics/about-d ... %20billion.

[Pompey1984+1]

The thing is though, us Brits are mostly welcomed here because we contribute quite a lot to the country's finance.

Actually and perhaps surprisingly given the general tone of the current political debate on the subject, immigration is also a net economic benefit to Britain's public finances. Pretty much every academic study suggests that there is a significant positive impact (to the tune of billions of pounds a year) to the British economy as a result of immigration.

The conclusion of one article I've just been reading (the second link below) states "Our analysis thus suggests that – rather than being a drain on the UK’s fiscal system – immigrants arriving since the early 2000s have made a net contributions to its public finances, a reality that contrasts starkly with the view often maintained in public debate."

So maybe the immigrants to the UK are equally contributing to our public finances as you are in Spain.

The links below make for some interesting reading, whatever your views on immigration are positive or negative:

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/r ... in-the-uk/

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/economics/about-d ... %20billion.

Something like 3 in 4 immigrants to the UK from the EU work in the UK.

Asylum Seekers are given free accomodation (note not housing) and around £50 per person on a prepayment card for clothes and food (I believe it's significantly less if their accomodation includes meals). If they are granted refugee status a refugee is entitled to the same benefits as a British Citizen, and is subject to the same process and assessment criteria.

There are less than 250k refugees in the UK, and less than 150k asylum seekers in the UK - these numbers are larger than normal due to the war in Ukraine.

The average attendance in the premier League in the 21/22 season was 39,500 meaning that almost as many people watch the premier League each week as there are refugees and asylum seekers combined in the UK.

[Betelgeuse]

The trouble is with uncontrolled migration is WHERE ARE THEY ALL GOING TO LIVE???
This is an island FFS. We don't have unlimited space and we don't want all our cities and towns turned into 3rd world ghettos like London.

If we're going to have any kind of immigration it should be for professional people that we need, not drug smugglers and people traffickers. We're far too soft in this country, too scared of being called "racist". I'm a patriot, not a racist, and there's nothing wrong with saying that.

[eltorrro]

The thing is though, us Brits are mostly welcomed here because we contribute quite a lot to the country's finance.

Actually and perhaps surprisingly given the general tone of the current political debate on the subject, immigration is also a net economic benefit to Britain's public finances. Pretty much every academic study suggests that there is a significant positive impact (to the tune of billions of pounds a year) to the British economy as a result of immigration.

The conclusion of one article I've just been reading (the second link below) states "Our analysis thus suggests that – rather than being a drain on the UK’s fiscal system – immigrants arriving since the early 2000s have made a net contributions to its public finances, a reality that contrasts starkly with the view often maintained in public debate."

So maybe the immigrants to the UK are equally contributing to our public finances as you are in Spain.

The links below make for some interesting reading, whatever your views on immigration are positive or negative:

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/r ... in-the-uk/

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/economics/about-d ... %20billion.

Something like 3 in 4 immigrants to the UK from the EU work in the UK.

Asylum Seekers are given free accomodation (note not housing) and around £50 per person on a prepayment card for clothes and food (I believe it's significantly less if their accomodation includes meals). If they are granted refugee status a refugee is entitled to the same benefits as a British Citizen, and is subject to the same process and assessment criteria.

There are less than 250k refugees in the UK, and less than 150k asylum seekers in the UK

Based on those figures the cost for Asylum seekers alone equates to about £7.5m PER WEEK just for their 'spending money'!!
That is sufficient to give EVERY nurse in the UK a rise of about £10 per week...and so it goes on and on.

I guess those with time and inclination would be able to find many more arguments against immigration and 'fake' asylum seekers and their so called benefit to the UK economy/community.

My view is the UK should be considering more its own citizens, likewise the home governments of all these 'asylum seekers/refugees' should be more sympathetic and caring to their own people.

[Betelgeuse]

The thing is though, us Brits are mostly welcomed here because we contribute quite a lot to the country's finance.

Actually and perhaps surprisingly given the general tone of the current political debate on the subject, immigration is also a net economic benefit to Britain's public finances. Pretty much every academic study suggests that there is a significant positive impact (to the tune of billions of pounds a year) to the British economy as a result of immigration.

The conclusion of one article I've just been reading (the second link below) states "Our analysis thus suggests that – rather than being a drain on the UK’s fiscal system – immigrants arriving since the early 2000s have made a net contributions to its public finances, a reality that contrasts starkly with the view often maintained in public debate."

So maybe the immigrants to the UK are equally contributing to our public finances as you are in Spain.

The links below make for some interesting reading, whatever your views on immigration are positive or negative:

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/r ... in-the-uk/

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/economics/about-d ... %20billion.

Something like 3 in 4 immigrants to the UK from the EU work in the UK.

Asylum Seekers are given free accomodation (note not housing) and around £50 per person on a prepayment card for clothes and food (I believe it's significantly less if their accomodation includes meals). If they are granted refugee status a refugee is entitled to the same benefits as a British Citizen, and is subject to the same process and assessment criteria.

There are less than 250k refugees in the UK, and less than 150k asylum seekers in the UK

Based on those figures the cost for Asylum seekers alone equates to about £7.5m PER WEEK just for their 'spending money'!!
That is sufficient to give EVERY nurse in the UK a rise of about £10 per week...and so it goes on and on.

I guess those with time and inclination would be able to find many more arguments against immigration and 'fake' asylum seekers and their so called benefit to the UK economy/community.

My view is the UK should be considering more its own citizens, likewise the home governments of all these 'asylum seekers/refugees' should be more sympathetic and caring to their own people.

Couldn't agree more.

[Blue Walter]

This particular thread concerning stealing from shops with a certain amount of impunity has developed into a political argument. The thing is that, before people get too carried away on the subject of pigeon holing certain subjects in political leanings, we should remember no particular leaning has subject ownership. For example the pro Brexit and anti Brexit argument was contested by the extreme left, middle ground and the extreme right in equal terms. The different race community's were also split on the argument. Racism is not the sole property of the white majority of this country as it is imbedded in all races in equal terms, often more deep seated by non white communities against other non white communities. Anti immigration is not the sole property of the right leaning white community of this country. You only have to see the make up of the current cabinet to see that those most vocal about immigration are people whose ancestry were, in fact, immigrants into our fair land. Stealing and criminal activity is not the sole ownership of any particular race or political leaning as this is spread amongst all classes you care to mention. Our history is generally taught so that we have to hate ourselves as white people when actual fact history paints a different story. For example you would need to go to another country to get a different veiw of Great Britain's involvement in the slave trade, and the ending of it. The USA is a good place to gain a different perspective of the British involvement in the disbanding of this trade.

This thread started with the incident that I witnessed and how it is a normal occurrence. The reaction of the police is questioned and the outlining inefficient way this, apparent, low grade crime is seen. It is not a political argument concerning someone being able to walk into a shop and not only steal but also abuse shop staff and legal customers. It's just plain crime that is not treated with the way it should be. The solutions may well lie in a political resolution but, for whatever reason, it cannot be allowed to go on.

[Pompey1984+1]

The thing is though, us Brits are mostly welcomed here because we contribute quite a lot to the country's finance.

Actually and perhaps surprisingly given the general tone of the current political debate on the subject, immigration is also a net economic benefit to Britain's public finances. Pretty much every academic study suggests that there is a significant positive impact (to the tune of billions of pounds a year) to the British economy as a result of immigration.

The conclusion of one article I've just been reading (the second link below) states "Our analysis thus suggests that – rather than being a drain on the UK’s fiscal system – immigrants arriving since the early 2000s have made a net contributions to its public finances, a reality that contrasts starkly with the view often maintained in public debate."

So maybe the immigrants to the UK are equally contributing to our public finances as you are in Spain.

The links below make for some interesting reading, whatever your views on immigration are positive or negative:

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/r ... in-the-uk/

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/economics/about-d ... %20billion.

Something like 3 in 4 immigrants to the UK from the EU work in the UK.

Asylum Seekers are given free accomodation (note not housing) and around £50 per person on a prepayment card for clothes and food (I believe it's significantly less if their accomodation includes meals). If they are granted refugee status a refugee is entitled to the same benefits as a British Citizen, and is subject to the same process and assessment criteria.

There are less than 250k refugees in the UK, and less than 150k asylum seekers in the UK

Based on those figures the cost for Asylum seekers alone equates to about £7.5m PER WEEK just for their 'spending money'!!
That is sufficient to give EVERY nurse in the UK a rise of about £10 per week...and so it goes on and on.

I guess those with time and inclination would be able to find many more arguments against immigration and 'fake' asylum seekers and their so called benefit to the UK economy/community.

My view is the UK should be considering more its own citizens, likewise the home governments of all these 'asylum seekers/refugees' should be more sympathetic and caring to their own people.

That's a drop in the ocean compared to the pension liabilities of the richest generation to walk the UK.

[Pompey1984+1]

This particular thread concerning stealing from shops with a certain amount of impunity has developed into a political argument. The thing is that, before people get too carried away on the subject of pigeon holing certain subjects in political leanings, we should remember no particular leaning has subject ownership. For example the pro Brexit and anti Brexit argument was contested by the extreme left, middle ground and the extreme right in equal terms. The different race community's were also split on the argument. Racism is not the sole property of the white majority of this country as it is imbedded in all races in equal terms, often more deep seated by non white communities against other non white communities. Anti immigration is not the sole property of the right leaning white community of this country. You only have to see the make up of the current cabinet to see that those most vocal about immigration are people whose ancestry were, in fact, immigrants into our fair land. Stealing and criminal activity is not the sole ownership of any particular race or political leaning as this is spread amongst all classes you care to mention. Our history is generally taught so that we have to hate ourselves as white people when actual fact history paints a different story. For example you would need to go to another country to get a different veiw of Great Britain's involvement in the slave trade, and the ending of it. The USA is a good place to gain a different perspective of the British involvement in the disbanding of this trade.

This thread started with the incident that I witnessed and how it is a normal occurrence. The reaction of the police is questioned and the outlining inefficient way this, apparent, low grade crime is seen. It is not a political argument concerning someone being able to walk into a shop and not only steal but also abuse shop staff and legal customers. It's just plain crime that is not treated with the way it should be. The solutions may well lie in a political resolution but, for whatever reason, it cannot be allowed to go on.

The original post is a symptom of the political choices made my the people.

[Blue Walter]

This particular thread concerning stealing from shops with a certain amount of impunity has developed into a political argument. The thing is that, before people get too carried away on the subject of pigeon holing certain subjects in political leanings, we should remember no particular leaning has subject ownership. For example the pro Brexit and anti Brexit argument was contested by the extreme left, middle ground and the extreme right in equal terms. The different race community's were also split on the argument. Racism is not the sole property of the white majority of this country as it is imbedded in all races in equal terms, often more deep seated by non white communities against other non white communities. Anti immigration is not the sole property of the right leaning white community of this country. You only have to see the make up of the current cabinet to see that those most vocal about immigration are people whose ancestry were, in fact, immigrants into our fair land. Stealing and criminal activity is not the sole ownership of any particular race or political leaning as this is spread amongst all classes you care to mention. Our history is generally taught so that we have to hate ourselves as white people when actual fact history paints a different story. For example you would need to go to another country to get a different veiw of Great Britain's involvement in the slave trade, and the ending of it. The USA is a good place to gain a different perspective of the British involvement in the disbanding of this trade.

This thread started with the incident that I witnessed and how it is a normal occurrence. The reaction of the police is questioned and the outlining inefficient way this, apparent, low grade crime is seen. It is not a political argument concerning someone being able to walk into a shop and not only steal but also abuse shop staff and legal customers. It's just plain crime that is not treated with the way it should be. The solutions may well lie in a political resolution but, for whatever reason, it cannot be allowed to go on.

The original post is a symptom of the political choices made my the people.

Is it really? I wonder what the bloke who perpetrated the shoplifting thinks of the current political climate. I wonder what his veiws are on just about any subject. I wonder if he has any veiws. Do you think a Labour government will be the party of law and order and solve the immigration problem? I personally don't know who to vote for, perhaps I will wait outside the shop to have a chat with the free shopping gentleman to hear what he thinks.

[StMonkton]

A couple of points related to this discussion.

Spain.
The bull seems to have taken a liking to Spanish policing especially the robust approach from the ‘Guardia Seville’. I wonder what happens in all the other Spanish cities?
When I lived in Spain 40 years ago there was a force called the Guardia Civil. Those guys really were to be feared. People I knew tended to see them as Franco’s enforcers.

The T shirt incident at the Cup Final was pretty disgusting in my view. I’m glad the wearer was grabbed by the authorities. I hope no one sees that behaviour as ‘just banter’.

‘More police’ ‘What sort of police?’
If our population has grown, we probably need more police not fewer.
To an extent, I worry about those who see policing as a vocation and certainly don’t see that as a reason not to pay them well.

At some events the only practical route to ‘control the crowd and maintain order’ is to work with the crowd not just be feared by it. We had decades of trying to police things like the Notting Hill carnival with force with the unpleasant results we remember. One skill of policing is making judgements on the spot in real time.

Sentences.
I think the data show average sentences for violent crime have risen steeply in the last ten years or so.

Politics
Sorry Walter but you brought politics in with the original post;’bowing to the woke brigade’ etc.

[Blue Walter]

A couple of points related to this discussion.

Spain.
The bull seems to have taken a liking to Spanish policing especially the robust approach from the ‘Guardia Seville’. I wonder what happens in all the other Spanish cities?
When I lived in Spain 40 years ago there was a force called the Guardia Civil. Those guys really were to be feared. People I knew tended to see them as Franco’s enforcers.

The T shirt incident at the Cup Final was pretty disgusting in my view. I’m glad the wearer was grabbed by the authorities. I hope no one sees that behaviour as ‘just banter’.

‘More police’ ‘What sort of police?’
If our population has grown, we probably need more police not fewer.
To an extent, I worry about those who see policing as a vocation and certainly don’t see that as a reason not to pay them well.

At some events the only practical route to ‘control the crowd and maintain order’ is to work with the crowd not just be feared by it. We had decades of trying to police things like the Notting Hill carnival with force with the unpleasant results we remember. One skill of policing is making judgements on the spot in real time.

Sentences.
I think the data show average sentences for violent crime have risen steeply in the last ten years or so.

Politics
Sorry Walter but you brought politics in with the original post;’bowing to the woke brigade’

I have just re read my piece and you are right, I did. That will teach me not to get on the soap box I suppose. The mention of woke will ruffle feathers on either side of the argument, but the original theme has been expanded somewhat and, if I may say, I disagree with most of your post anyway.

[StMonkton]

Specifically what do you disagree with?

The only opinions in my view were that we need more police, we should pay them well and that policing on the ground needs subtlety.

[Blue Walter]

Specifically what do you disagree with?

The only opinions in my view were that we need more police, we should pay them well and that policing on the ground needs subtlety.

There are some profession's where a vocational attitude towards the service is paramount. I believe policing is one such position where the candidate should motivated to a public service as well as a career. Offering a financial incentive that a particular candidate may find attractive enough to 'put up' with the rigours of the job would not be suitable in my opinion. That is not to say that the police should not be well paid by any means but it should not be the main incentive to serve.

As I have said before when the police are on duty they should be detached from the event they are policing and do what they are there for. Taking the knee is a political action and the police should not be taking part, just as you would expect them not to be giving Nazi salutes at a right wing rally. Making tea for protestors is not policing nor is dancing with participants at gay pride events.

But then you knew full what I disagreed with you about so why ask?

[Pompey1984+1]

This particular thread concerning stealing from shops with a certain amount of impunity has developed into a political argument. The thing is that, before people get too carried away on the subject of pigeon holing certain subjects in political leanings, we should remember no particular leaning has subject ownership. For example the pro Brexit and anti Brexit argument was contested by the extreme left, middle ground and the extreme right in equal terms. The different race community's were also split on the argument. Racism is not the sole property of the white majority of this country as it is imbedded in all races in equal terms, often more deep seated by non white communities against other non white communities. Anti immigration is not the sole property of the right leaning white community of this country. You only have to see the make up of the current cabinet to see that those most vocal about immigration are people whose ancestry were, in fact, immigrants into our fair land. Stealing and criminal activity is not the sole ownership of any particular race or political leaning as this is spread amongst all classes you care to mention. Our history is generally taught so that we have to hate ourselves as white people when actual fact history paints a different story. For example you would need to go to another country to get a different veiw of Great Britain's involvement in the slave trade, and the ending of it. The USA is a good place to gain a different perspective of the British involvement in the disbanding of this trade.

This thread started with the incident that I witnessed and how it is a normal occurrence. The reaction of the police is questioned and the outlining inefficient way this, apparent, low grade crime is seen. It is not a political argument concerning someone being able to walk into a shop and not only steal but also abuse shop staff and legal customers. It's just plain crime that is not treated with the way it should be. The solutions may well lie in a political resolution but, for whatever reason, it cannot be allowed to go on.

The original post is a symptom of the political choices made my the people.

Is it really? I wonder what the bloke who perpetrated the shoplifting thinks of the current political climate. I wonder what his veiws are on just about any subject. I wonder if he has any veiws. Do you think a Labour government will be the party of law and order and solve the immigration problem? I personally don't know who to vote for, perhaps I will wait outside the shop to have a chat with the free shopping gentleman to hear what he thinks.

The political choices have led to an environment where people either have to shoplift, or if they are that way inclined there is no deterrent, or resources to deal with it.